Comments on Shure VP88 for remote work?

[Jamz]

Any user comments on the Shure VP88 are welcome.
- choral remote work?
- compared to Rode NT4?
- Performance at far diffuse field?

[Indrestudios]

Hi Jim,

Small world...I love the VP88 as a room / ambient mic, though never used it as the sole mic on a choir. I've been told it's nothing more than a pair of SM81 capsules mounted in a fancy housing. Either way, I'll take it.

We hung one up way in the rafters of Sanders Hall (on the Harvard campus) for a live Beck CD - holy crap, the room reverb sound from that mic was way better than anything I could have dialed in from a box / plug in.

-Mike Comstock
Indre Mobile, Philadelphia

[Jamz]

Originally Posted by Indrestudios

Hi Jim,

Small world...I love the VP88 as a room / ambient mic, though never used it as the sole mic on a choir. I've been told it's nothing more than a pair of SM81 capsules mounted in a fancy housing. Either way, I'll take it.

We hung one up way in the rafters of Sanders Hall (on the Harvard campus) for a live Beck CD - holy crap, the room reverb sound from that mic was way better than anything I could have dialed in from a box / plug in.

-Mike Comstock
Indre Mobile, Philadelphia

Hey Mike. Nice truck by the way!
I've never heard the mic (that I'm aware of) and not much seems to be mentioned about it either. Thanks for the info.
I have a few pairs of mics but only 1 stereo mic in the R88. Not trying to spend $6K on a stereo condensor the VP88 seems like a very reasonably priced candidate. Glad you're enjoying it.
Where ya parked these days? Perhaps we'll run into (not literally) each other someday soon.

Jim

[Gilliland]

Originally Posted by Indrestudios

I love the VP88 as a room / ambient mic, though never used it as the sole mic on a choir. I've been told it's nothing more than a pair of SM81 capsules mounted in a fancy housing.

That seems unlikely. The VP88 is an M/S micrphone. I haven't actually taken it apart to see what's inside, but it seems likely that it is a standard M/S configuration of a cardiod and a figure-8. If so, at least one of the capsules will have little to do with an SM81.

[Jim vanBergen]

I have heard this mic, and it sounds nothing like an SM81 capsule sounds to me. I have used it to capture events sufficiently, but it does not hit the mark as far as "world class" in my personal opinion. Having now peed on it, it's absolutely a fine, reasonably priced stereo microphone. No offense intended, but it's just not in the realm of the KSM44 capsule, which Shure did really well as a value-oriented, good sounding mic.

[Indrestudios]

Gilliland, I stand corrected - it is set up as an M/S mic. Not sure where I got the SM81 info, thanks for the correction.

Sure I guess it may not be a world class stereo pair, but I do think it's a great stereo mic for around $700. We frequently clamp one on a far balcony - makes a great "back of hall" room mic.




Info from the Shure site:

The Shure Model VP88 is a single-point, stereo condenser microphone for use in professional studio recording, field production, electronic news gathering (ENG), and studio broadcasting applications. It combines two condenser cartridges in a single housing to create a stereo audio image of the sound source. It is unique in its ability to capture the realism of a live event and yet withstand rigorous field production environments.


The VP88 uses a mid-side (M-S) configuration. One microphone cartridge (Mid) faces forward to capture on-axis sound using a cardioid pickup pattern. The other microphone cartridge (Side) is bi-directional, capturing sound from either side. The VP88 contains an internal M-S matrix with three settings for different degrees of stereo image seperation. The internal matrix can be bypassed if an external matrix is used or if stereo imaging is done in post-production. Switches on the top of the microphone control output mode, stereo imaging, low-frequency rolloff settings, and battery on/off.

[Gilliland]

Originally Posted by Jim vanBergen

it's absolutely a fine, reasonably priced stereo microphone.

I've found it to be a very useful microphone. I wouldn't compare it to a KSM44 (or an AKG 414 or an AT 4050), but that's not its goal.

We use it in our broadcast studio, and I selected it principally because of its M/S configuration. Our studio is small, and depending on the configuration of musicians in the room, I can vary the stereo pattern of mic to produce a reasonable stereo field for broadcast. This is major virtue for our purposes.

[johnkreidler]

I use the VP88 for live sound on Choirs and find it very stable and I am able to get more gain before feedback with this than even KM 84's. Typically I place it about 3 feet from a shoulder to shoulder lineup of 8 to 10 vocalists wide. Set in Wide mode it picks up quite evenly.

I have also found it to be my favorite Piano Mic for its ability to capture every octave evenly and again with great gain before feedback.

It's also my favorite Audience Mic for IEM's which I usually process with a binaural panner to place them in front of the artist perspective.

I have been told that the "guts" of the mic are Mid is a SM81 capsule and the Side is an SM80 in figure 8 pattern.

[EV676]

I use it as a crowd mic for sports remotes if I'm doing a stereo feed. I compress it and it gives a nice overall background to the broadcast.

[JEGG]

Originally Posted by johnkreidler

.

I have been told that the "guts" of the mic are Mid is a SM81 capsule and the Side is an SM80 in figure 8 pattern.

Did your source explain how Shure gets a figure 8 pattern from an omni capsule?

[FuzzyWuzzy]

Originally Posted by Indrestudios

Hi Jim,

Small world...I love the VP88 as a room / ambient mic, though never used it as the sole mic on a choir. I've been told it's nothing more than a pair of SM81 capsules mounted in a fancy housing. Either way, I'll take it.

We hung one up way in the rafters of Sanders Hall (on the Harvard campus) for a live Beck CD - holy crap, the room reverb sound from that mic was way better than anything I could have dialed in from a box / plug in.

-Mike Comstock
Indre Mobile, Philadelphia

Dude! Sanders Hall is an amazing sounding space!!! I used to work for a sound co. in Boston and we did some gigs in there with University accapella vocal groups. I couldn't get over how awesome it sounded. I'm jealous of your VP88 room tracks!!! I'd love to get some IR's of that place just to have in my hip pocket!!!!

[Petrus]

I had a VP88 for some time, very nice but heavy (strong, yes) field mic. Nice thing it needs no phantom, I used it with a small minidisk recorder for radio documentary work. Good sound, too, but slightly noisy for classical type work. I did one organ recording with it though, which turned out quite good (blowers are noiser than the VP88 anyway).

[petsematary]

Originally Posted by EV676

I use it as a crowd mic for sports remotes if I'm doing a stereo feed. I compress it and it gives a nice overall background to the broadcast.

Oldie thread, but just a quick question: when you use it as a crowd reaction type mic like that, how do you compress it? I mean, do you use more of a limiter type compression to keep it from overloading during a goal cheer or is it something else? Just interested, I thought about it the other night when I went to a hockey game and sat just below the press deck where a couple of guys had mics like that pointed out towards the hall. Do you throw any eq on it as well btw?

[JEGG]

Originally Posted by Jamz

Any user comments on the Shure VP88 are welcome.
- choral remote work?
- compared to Rode NT4?
- Performance at far diffuse field?

Why not just use the NT4, and if you want a little more difference signal just add it in post? Assuming you have NT4.

For my work, it's not a great mic, limited in frequency response, and unlimited in size and weight, and producing a sound that is less than arresting. But that's just me.

You could get a MKH30 and use that with some of your other existing favorite mic's if the sounds are complimentary. If not complimentary, try a multi-pattern Shure or AKG for your 8 mic.

The VP88 does work well for many if not most people, and it's often seen on stage, too, usually over a drum kit. So good luck with whatever you choose. Most things can be made to work well with some experience.

[Nirvana5253]

+1 for the VP88. I've used it a few times for ambient / room audio and it worked really well. I'd be afraid the self noise would be an issue in quieter choir pieces or in very quiet spaces. Other than that, great mic all around. Check out the Shure site and their interactive mic selector to A/B the mic against some of their others.

Best,

Travis

Shure Mic Comparison Lab

[DannyL]

- 1 for the VP88. I just do not like this mic. Sonically it does not mix well with other mics, the mic sounds grainy and the stereo image it presents seems lifeless at best.

It is very inexpensive. So I guess you get what you pay for. I'd rather buy a pair of SM81's and use them in either an ORTF or X/Y configuration. The 81 is not my first choice for ambience either, though it is miles ahead of the VP88. For a brightish SDC I prefer the Josephson C42's. Great mic for the price. Generally I use Schoeps MK4 capsules. But they are much more expensive.

Regards;
Danny

[Brackish]

Originally Posted by Nirvana5253

I've used it a few times for ambient / room audio and it worked really well. I'd be afraid the self noise would be an issue in quieter choir pieces or in very quiet spaces.

About a month back, I saw an online comparison of the NT4 to the VP88.
It was just a comparison of self-noise.

The guy hooked both mics up to a Sound Devices pre and made
a recording. The recording was in the guy's quiet living room.
There was a wall clock ticking off in the distance across the room.
The guy cranked the mics up to get an equal signal for the ticking of
the clock and the resultant recordings were posted for comparison.
(I imagine the guy was throwing a lot of gain on the mics.)

And, WOW, the hiss of the VP88 - in comparison to the NT4 - was
through the roof! The hiss was overpowering! The NT4, on the
other hand, was not too bad.

[Brackish]

Originally Posted by DannyL

For a brightish SDC I prefer the Josephson C42's. Great mic for the price. Generally I use Schoeps MK4 capsules.

How's the sound of the C42 compared to the MK4?

Have you ever tried mixing the 42 and the MK together?
Do they mix okay?

[hbphotoav]

Seems like if noise is not an issue and if you can live with a fixed XY as opposed to the variable soundstage the M/S configuration will allow... it comes down to dollars and "sound".

I've had a NT4 since they were introduced (got it from Sweetwater for the then-introductory price of $325...) and have used it at home and abroad. While my more recently added MKH8040s get the lion's share of main pair work, I wouldn't be without the NT4. Until someone gives me a VM-1S, of course. But that's a serviceable VW to a new Bentley... and even then I wouldn't put the VM-1S within a meter of a drum kit on a small club stage, where the NT4 regularly does yeoman service for me, hanging right over T1, aimed at the snare. So, I'd love the Brauner and still not get rid of the NT4. Very useful mic.

My $0.02US.

HB

[Brackish]

Originally Posted by hbphotoav

I wouldn't be without the NT4.

So you're using it for drum overheads? Any other ways?

[hbphotoav]

Originally Posted by Brackish

So you're using it for drum overheads? Any other ways?

Very occasionally as a choral support mic between the orchestra and chorus (not so much since adding a pair of AT4041s a year ago) and as a source for my Edirol R09HD on small, quick facsimile recording gigs (small jazz group, etc.)

It's not my favorite mic, just a regularly useful mic.

HB

[panatrope]

I have never come to love the NT4/NT5/NT55 cardioid capsules - the omni NT45s are much more useful - but not what you are talking about.

I have used the AT825 for several years, in the field and also in some classical situations. Also very useful on small recorders which have 1/8" connectors and no phantom (also uses internal battery). Noise level is the same as the VP88 (24dBA) but I have rarely found that an issue. The NT4 noise is a lot lower (16dBA). I have been aiming to test the new Audio Technica BP4025 which has even lower noise (14dbA) and higher output, but I need to confirm how its soundstage and mono compatibility works (novel capsule design and layout) - and unfortunately it does not have self-power capability.

Like hb said, the AT825 is not my favourite mic, but I would not be without it. Very convenient as a stereo hall/audience mic, and easy to rig with a single XLR5 cable (like the NT4 or VP88 - or a Neumann SM69fet for that matter ... )

[Petrus]

I replaced my VP88 with Pearl MSH10. Less noise, lighter, but needs MS matrixing down the chain somewhere, also phantom. As it is a hyper/fig-8 combination, it is also better suited for more distant miking situations (like video, where you need to get the mic off-frame). It is actually quite good! And costs as much as two VP88, alas.

Pearl has several versions of these stereo mics, cardioid and hypercard, internal matrix or "raw".

Pearl Condenser michrophone stereo

[JEGG]

Originally Posted by Petrus

I replaced my VP88 with Pearl MSH10. Less noise, lighter, but needs MS matrixing down the chain somewhere, also phantom. As it is a hyper/fig-8 combination, it is also better suited for more distant miking situations (like video, where you need to get the mic off-frame). It is actually quite good! And costs as much as two VP88, alas.

Pearl has several versions of these stereo mics, cardioid and hypercard, internal matrix or "raw".

Pearl Condenser michrophone stereo

I do MS quite a bit, and generally find a cardioid mid to be the least used, so I can appreciate the benefit of having other mid patterns available.

In the US, Shure microphones are very attractively priced, so getting an MS Pearl for the price of two VP88 would be quite attractive.

I suspect the VP88's go for considerably more money on your side of the pond.

Other than noise and mid pattern, I would be surprised if there was not a noticeable difference in the general subjective sound of the mic. I'd be interested in your comments in that area.

[petsematary]

Over here in northern Europe, the list price for a VP88 was around 1.300 dollars last time I checked. RE20's are usually 650-700 dollars. So yeah, US made gear in crazy pricey.

Audio Technica seems to have a new one out now - in Japan, at least. AT9943 it's called.

NEW audio-technica Stereo microphone AT9943 fr Japan - eBay (item 110469157307 end time Jan-05-11 19:07:06 PST)

[Brackish]

Originally Posted by Petrus

It is actually quite good! And costs as much as two VP88

In US, VP88 is $700 and Pearl is $2200.

[roonsbane]

Jegg said:

Did your source explain how Shure gets a figure 8 pattern from an omni capsule?

This is how a dual diaphragm pressure-gradient transducer microphone would achieve an omni pattern. It is essentially the output of both diaphragms (front and back) at equal level. Strangely enough, I have never actually held or used an SM80 so I have no idea what the design is.

Cameron

[JEGG]

Originally Posted by roonsbane

Jegg said:

This is how a dual diaphragm pressure-gradient transducer microphone would achieve an omni pattern. It is essentially the output of both diaphragms (front and back) at equal level.

The side polar pattern needed is a figure 8, not an omni. And the SM80 microphone doesn't have a dual diaphragm capsule.

Originally Posted by roonsbane

Strangely enough, I have never actually held or used an SM80 so I have no idea what the design is.

Can I gently suggest that you and #8 (and his source) do a little reading? You have a grasp of the general idea, but you've got your capsules and combinations a little mixed up.

The SM80 microphone has a pressure transducer.

An omni plus an omni is an omni.

An omni minus an omni is a null.

[roonsbane]

My point is,
Jegg, I believe you are saying the SM80 and SM81 is a pressure design using venting like the Schoeps MK5 to create the various patterns. I said I did not know the design, but it may very well be.

If the mic had been designed using a dual diaphragm pressure gradient capsule turned to be a side fire mic like a Schoeps MK6, it would be capable of being any of the five patterns, and anything in between. It would achieve an omni pattern by having equal levels of both sides of the capsule or by flipping the polarity of the back side, a figure of eight.

Here is a reference for anyone who is interested in how mixing the levels and polarity of the capsules changes the pattern:
http://www.sennheiser.com/sennheiser/products.nsf/resources/7387FBAC5B881E91C12574330043B52E/$File/MKH_800_Twin_US.pdf

It's about on page 5.
Best
Cameron

[roonsbane]

Sorry for Hijacking the thread a bit, but I assume the original poster may have in fact been thinking the SM80 and 81 was a dual diaphragm condenser. I assume the handheld KSM9 vocal mic is, and this is how it achieves cardioid and supercardioid patterns.

Anyway, it's too bad Shure has not made a stereo multi-pattern mic using their KSM44 technology. I think it would sell very well.
Cameron