Recording rock and ska live in practice room for high quality CD/DVD release

[Seek]

Hello. I play in a couple of projects that I would like to record for release on CD and maybe DVD. Both involve the musicians playing the songs together in a room live.

Does anyone have a recommendation for a simple relatively safe way to capture the room? I intend on mostly using only the room mics for the mix.

[leddy]

When I first started recording my band I had a Fostex X-15, a beat-up SM57 that came out of a restaurant kitchen, and some Radio Shack Headphones for mixing...

[Seek]

I really like the recordings of my bands made with a stereo cassette recorder at a live show or from a couple of room mics in the practice space. Looking for advice on how to maximize the quality of this.

[Remoteness]

Hello Seek,

When you say, “Relatively safe way to capture the room” do you me protection from damage to the mics or something else?

Also, why do you want to use only the room mics? I would think you want at least a few close mics setup especially because it’s Rock & Ska music you’re capturing.

Maybe it’s because you really like the recordings you got from your old cassette recorder and I understand where you’re coming from…

I would walk around the room while the band is playing and listen to there the band sounds best. IE: most blended – The fullest sound and such. Place a stereo pair in that area and pay attention to the reverberation and texture of the sound you’re getting. Also play around with the microphone spread. If stereo is not an issue and you just want to get a great blend move the mics independently from each other until you got the perfect instrument balance in mono.

I hope this helped.

[Seek]

Originally Posted by Remoteness

Hello Seek,

When you say, “Relatively safe way to capture the room” do you me protection from damage to the mics or something else?

I don't mean damage. I mean that I don't have a lot of experience recording this way, and I'm not going to have a good monitoring environment, so how would be a safe way to mic the room that won't give me too many surprises or problems when I listen to it later?

Also, why do you want to use only the room mics? I would think you want at least a few close mics setup especially because it’s Rock & Ska music you’re capturing.

I'm not opposed to spot mics. It's more a limitation on the number of reportedly high quality channels I have available. Right now it's four, but it could be six. Beyond that number, it's a question of how good the MOTU Traveler AD is.

Maybe it’s because you really like the recordings you got from your old cassette recorder and I understand where you’re coming from…

That's the reason. It already sounds mixed...with good balance and depth.... Since we can play our songs without overdubbing, it seems like there are a lot of advantages to doing it this way. Though missing is maybe some intimacy with some of the instruments (drums, percussions, brass), and clarity of the bass guitar.

I would walk around the room while the band is playing and listen to there the band sounds best. IE: most blended – The fullest sound and such. Place a stereo pair in that area and pay attention to the reverberation and texture of the sound you’re getting. Also play around with the microphone spread. If stereo is not an issue and you just want to get a great blend move the mics independently from each other until you got the perfect instrument balance in mono.

I hope this helped.

Thank you. Back to my safe question, for the stereo pair would XY, M/S, or ORTF be a good start? I have had some phase issues with my experiments with AB setups, though it sounded the most interesting at first.

Also, I'm interested in capturing it for surround as well. How would you recommend for this? I bought the mics that I did in order to start towards having enough to put up an OCT array, but I'm not sure how well this will work in a very small room (3 m x 4 m). Also, I don't know how well this can be used for stereo as well.

Thank you for taking the time to reply.

[Seek]

bump

[Remoteness]

Come on. Seek seeks more advice.

Can't anyone add some advice for our GS friend?

[treymonfauntre]

i'm a big fan of x/y over drumkit, kick drum mic, di bass and amp sim/reamp, 57s on guitar amps, and a room mic (mono or stereo, whichever you prefer).

i can't imagine hearing a ska song in surround sound. when i watch bands i don't stand in the middle of them, so i'm not sure why people think surround is such a great idea for music.

[Curtis Franklin]

when you watch bands you are usually listening in mono too.

surround is cool because you can create something that doesn't exist live.

[Remoteness]

Originally Posted by pumadrum

when you watch bands you are usually listening in mono too.

surround is cool because you can create something that doesn't exist live.

We have stereo ears - What do you mean?

[Remoteness]

Originally Posted by treymonfauntre

i'm a big fan of x/y over drumkit, kick drum mic, di bass and amp sim/reamp, 57s on guitar amps, and a room mic (mono or stereo, whichever you prefer).

i can't imagine hearing a ska song in surround sound. when i watch bands i don't stand in the middle of them, so i'm not sure why people think surround is such a great idea for music.

Mixing surround sound for live performances in the past usually meant band stage mix was placed on the front three speakers and the audience/ambience in the rear speakers with purhaps some additional delay and EFX from the various individual instruments to create a larger more interesting space.

With that said, I welcome new and creative approaches to live surround sound mixing. YMMV.

Anything is possible, And, why not?

[Seek]

Originally Posted by treymonfauntre

i'm a big fan of x/y over drumkit, kick drum mic, di bass and amp sim/reamp, 57s on guitar amps, and a room mic (mono or stereo, whichever you prefer).

Is there anything you need to be careful with blending the drum overheads with the room mic(s)?

I've been experimenting today with micing the drums using two overheads and a kick mic, to just try to get them sounding good on their own. I put the two overheads equal distance from the snare, about 18" away from each other. I first tried hypercardioids, it was too bright for me. Then I tried omnis. It was better, but still a little bright--too much cymbals. Also, the omnis will probably be a problem (with isolation) when I have the full band in the room. I'm going to try deadening the drum corner and see what effect that has. Otherwise, I've got to figure something else out. Maybe ribbon mics?

i can't imagine hearing a ska song in surround sound. when i watch bands i don't stand in the middle of them, so i'm not sure why people think surround is such a great idea for music.

As a starting point, I'd like to be able to listen to it on a surround system with my eyes closed and for it to sound like I'm in the room with the band. Won't micing for surround help give me this by capturing the reflections off the back walls? Or doesn't this work in a small room (and is only appropriate for a hall)?

[Curtis Franklin]

The previous post referred to a live show saying that live shows aren't in surround.

I was just commenting that live shows are mostly in mono so why make stereo records?

I realize that we have two ears... we should use them to listen to a truly 3-D representation of a sound.

Stereo is great, but it only exists along one axis. Depth is created psychoacoustically using "amount of room." In our physical world the source of a sound can come from anywhere around you (not just from the front of you).

Surround is great, because we can actually mix using 3 dimensions (which reflect reality). We can also create depth using the "amount of room." Really, surround has the potential to more accurately represent what we are hearing in the real world.

Binaural is the closest that stereo has come thus far to being 3-D, but it does not work unless the consumer is using headphones. People may bag on surround, but I think it is very cool.

[Remoteness]

Curtis,

I see where you’re coming from since live shows are usually not reinforced in surround.

We can capture the experience in surround like Seek stated,

As a starting point, I'd like to be able to listen to it on a surround system with my eyes closed and for it to sound like I'm in the room with the band…

Even if the show or performance is mixed (mostly) in mono, we still hear binaurally. If you’re standing in front of the band you’re hearing the GTR on the left and perhaps the bass on the right, the slap off the back wall, et cetera, etc.


Mic'ing for surround will capture the reflections of the room but, the size of the room is key. It could work in a small space but, you have to be playing pretty low in volume and (depending on the materials in the room) like that quick slap back sounding vibe. Who knows it may sound awesome?

3-D sound is a great concept, especially when the right delivery system is in place. I agree, using headphones seems like the only way to go… Imagine 20,000 capacity audience with their own wireless in-ears or headphones getting the 3-D sound from FOH or a OB unit outside the venue. That's big time baby!

Create a standard that all (or most) manufactures will follow. If you don’t have your own set, purchase or rent one at the venue. On the "busting my arse tip," crews would save their backs not needing to haul tons of speakers and such around. IMO, it’s a simply grand idea! Seriously forward thinking for sure.

Let's setup a NYC chapter Gearslutz session in front of a (let's say) 30 to 60 person situation. totally wireless transmission for the sound delivery device.

Crazy, but, I'd love to work on this idea. We can start small, let's say stereo first, then build up to surround. Anyone interested?

[Curtis Franklin]

I think you are on to something, and I am jealous of the NYC slutz!

I am all for live recordings sounding like a like environment.

What do you think of the idea that an album (to me an artificial space) should be mixed even more creativly in surround (ie listener in the center of the band)?

Steve, you have done some of the best recordings around. I think its great to have this conversation with you.