Miking a carillon?

[tnjazz]

Anyone here done it? Looking for suggestions. We're recording a Christmas Eve performance and I'm not sure what the best approach is.

Thanks,
Dirk

[RichS]

A carillon (I'm assuming the "moose-ass" size church tower bells kind) is meant to be heard at a distance, so mic'ing up-close in the tower shouldn't really be done. (Too much mechanical noise!) Record from outside, and if possible, several stories up in a nearby building to help lessen any street traffic. Wide spaced omni's would work nicely, although cardioids might be needed if there are too many reflections from other buildings. Also, don't just set-up both mic's in one window... if available, try separating left and right mic's into different rooms that face the tower.

An important thing to remember... there's quite a lot of low frequency energy in a bell peal. It's not just "high-end" bings and bongs... so no high-pass filters.

Oh, and don't freak-out about traffice noise, bat/bird chirps, or the occasional train whistle in the distance... it's all part of the "charm" of carillon recordings.

[Legacy]

I did post work on a recording on a carillon piece. They ended up renting a construction crane to hang the mics from (....). It still ended up being very noisy, windy, and rather strange. I think Rich's suggestion of adjacent buildings would be good if its viable in that location.

Good Luck,
Silas

[tnjazz]

Thanks in advance for the head start on this. We'll be taking a little tour of the campus beforehand of course, and once we see exactly what we've got I may be back with more Q's.

If anyone else has any experience and would like to chime in, I'd most certainly appreciate it!

Dirk

PS - a crane is not in the budget.

[Jim vanBergen]

I am a ninth generation belllmaker. (vanBergen Bells, since 1534) and this thread is up my alley.

I have done many bell & carrillon recordings, and listened to carrillons at too close a distance.

Some questions you will need to answer:

Who manufactured the bells? Taylor, Paccard, vanBergen- each manufacturer sounds different, due to alloy content, tuning, and the profile of the bell (how thick it is in the middle). Cast bronze bells, by their very nature, are a MINOR instrument, and are tuned to a minimum of 12 harmonics. (Tuning is done by shaving away the inside of the bell.)

What is the size of the carrillon? (A peal is 3-4 bells, a chime is 4-12 bells, a carrillon is 23 or more bells. Most full sized carrillons are 49 bells (four full octaves) and traditionally run from G or A upwards.

How are they hung? Are the Bells stationary on a frame? How many bells, if any, are on rotary swing frames? These "swinging" bells can be rung in TWO methods, one much noisier than the other.

How is it struck? Most bells are struck by a side-mounted clapper. Bells used in a peal have an internal clapper that rings when the swing frame rotates back and forth. Usually these bells ALSO have a stationary clapper so the large bells can be used in the carrillon, as well as a part of a swung peal. Peal bells are either rung by a motor & chain, or by a rope (rope of chain) that rotates the bell frame. Chain drives are notoriously noisy.

The method of ringing and the way they are hung, in addition to the fabrication of the bellfry, will have a huge impact on how you will want to record the bells. Bells can produce a very high SPL and you also must consider how much low end you want to capture.

Most carrillons are played by a clavier, which is a massive keyboard with wooden keys and pedals that affix to rods that pull on a sprung lever to activate the clapper. Some modern carrillons are entirely driven by electromagnets, which take the MIDI signal from any keyboard or organ in the church and trigger electromagnets to open and close, activating the clappers and striking the bells. These electromagnets can also be quite noisy.

HOW WILL YOU RECORD IT?
I always feel it is most prudent to capture hung bells in two fashions: a near stereo pair, and a distant stereo pair. The near pair sometimes works best if you have an adjacent chamber, such as the clavier room, or the area of the tower next to or directly below the carrillon. These should be captured completely independently. You will find huge differences between an ambient pair 150-300' from the tower on the ground. If you can find an isolated area, such as a quad, a park, or a similar closed area spend some time listening to see how it might serve. Sometimes a high walled cemetery, or a garden inside a nearby rectory is your absolute best bet.

Pattern is completey up to you. I bring matched cardioid and omni pairs and A/B them, and choose what sounds best to me.

I hope this helps!

Feel free to PM or email me if I can be of assistance. What university is this? I might have some insider knowledge or even a contact that could be helpful in some instances.

Jim van Bergen

[Jim vanBergen]

I had a look at your website.

Just a suggestion, may I consider you use Avensons thru the Edirol pre to a DAT or Powerbook as the NEAR set, and the Beyer 740 multipatterns as the far pair, if you take my advice on doing multiple source recordings? Just a suggestion, it's what I would do if I were using your gear. Hope I not taking too much liberty with this suggestion.

Jim

[DonM]

Recording Church Bell Info Here

and Here

[Jim vanBergen]

Originally Posted by DonM

Recording Church Bell Info Here

and Here

While the bell location & manufacturer information is invaluable, the second link has a great number of errors regarding recordings & technique.

[yawatta]

So I did this once about 3 years ago for the Belmont University School of Music. We had installed one of those TV reporter microphones in the top of the tower that can take rain, snow, etc. Then we had a 421 beneath the bells pointing up.

The only problem was that our recording rig was some preamps and a DAT machine in heavy duty road case. We got it up the first two flights of stairs, but it just WASN'T going up the next flight without someone getting smashed under it a few times, and there were two more flights to go (they got narrower as it went up). So we just ran 50' mic cables up to the microphones and recorded it from there. So while the carillon wasn't playing, we kept on hearing this talk radio thing happening when we cranked the gain. Duh, we're way high in the air and running 50' antennas.

I didn't work with it after we recorded it, but I heard from my boss that the carillon community loved the recording.

[tnjazz]

Originally Posted by Jim vanBergen

While the bell location & manufacturer information is invaluable, the second link has a great number of errors regarding recordings & technique.

Wait, so are you saying I shouldn't record 16 bit mono through my computer soundcard with an AKG C1000?

Couldn't you have told me that sooner?

[stirinthesauce]

Originally Posted by yawatta

So I did this once about 3 years ago for the Belmont University School of Music.

How ironic

[tnjazz]

Just wanted to bump this thread a little, as this gig is a few days away.

The client has very specific requests for this recording (2 dynamics close miking the bells, mixed to mono 2 track ) but has given us permission to do whatever else we want in addition to his tracks. So naturally we want to run additional mics in different locations as either a separate recording or on separate channels of a multitrack.

Anyone have any other suggestions for us to try?

[theblue1]

Having visited and stayed for some time within easy earshot of a church with a famous carillon that had mechanically programmed "performances" several times a day and live carillon concerts at least once or twice a week I would have to say that the best place to mic a carillon is from far, far away.

Like... the next county.

[Remoteness]

I bet 200 or 300 feet way would sound very nice.

[tnjazz]

Originally Posted by Remoteness

I bet 200 or 300 feet way would sound very nice.

It would, but there are distractions in the environment that are probably too loud to overcome. A fountain in the main square (which will be full of people milling about) and an enormous HVAC type unit just outside the bell tower (as in - 2 stories high enormous!)

I brought up the point made earlier about ambient noise being part of the experience and the client quickly shot that down, saying they didn't want any extraneous noise other than the occasional hammer striking a bell (which is why they want us to close mic the bells)

So what we're basically stuck with is recording in the bell tower, close miking the bells.

Our current plan is to use their permanent install mic (some kind of dynamic cardioid hanging down) and another dynamic below for the recording they're used to getting (this is also a "safety net" of sorts, so that if all else fails we can at least deliver their normal recording). Then to improve the quality of the recording in general we want to add stereo pairs top and bottom (good condensers in card or wide card mode) and perhaps omnis alongside.

We'd run everything to separate tracks of course (8 total at this point) and what it basically amounts to is sticking a bunch of good condenser mics all around the carillon and dealing with it in post.

Thoughts?

[Remoteness]

In any event, get those mics as far as possible from the bells.

Good luck and keep us posted on your developments!

[Jim vanBergen]

I dunno... if it HAD to be close miked, I'd try a spaced pair of Shure VP64 omni dynamics, and an ORTF pair of 57's... worse things have happened. But I'm sure he's planning on doing eight channels to multitrack!

[Remoteness]

If you must close mic those bells consider pointing them away from the bells instead of at them.


Give it a shot -- You never know, it may sound good enough to record.

[tnjazz]

Originally Posted by Jim vanBergen

I dunno... if it HAD to be close miked, I'd try a spaced pair of Shure VP64 omni dynamics, and an ORTF pair of 57's... worse things have happened. But I'm sure he's planning on doing eight channels to multitrack!

Yes that's exactly what we're thinking right now. Just run 8 mics and then take it home and see what works and what doesn't. Maybe we capture magic somehow in the mixing of a couple mics...With 8 mics pointed at the bells I'm hoping we get something good!

Originally Posted by Remoteness

If you must close mic those bells consider pointing them away from the bells instead of at them.


Give it a shot -- You never know, it may sound good enough to record.

I actually thought about that this afternoon, but it seemed like kind of a weird idea because most of our mics are directional. Would you point a card away from the bells (maybe pointing out at the courtyard?) and expect to get pretty good results? I don't know because I've never tried it. It's certainly something to consider though, if you think there might be some benefit to it. I suppose it would capture some of the ambience that the other mics might miss?

Our mic locker is pretty sparse at the moment (we're really just getting this thing into high gear as a real side business although we've been recording for years) so for mics we're bringing an MC930 pair (cards), an MC740 pair (multipattern LD) and the Avenson pair (omni). Probably add a dynamic for low bells as well, although I'm not sure.

My thought was to use the 930's overhead to capture the top bells, and the 740's below for the low bells (maybe in wide cardioid mode?) with the Avensons in the middle on the left and right. Would we have a lot of phase issues trying something like this?

Would a ribbon be a good choice as another dynamic?

Questions, questions, questions. I've got a lot on my mind this weekend, and this gig is actually the least of my worries!

Thanks for all the suggestions so far!
Dirk

[Remoteness]

Originally Posted by tnjazz

...I actually thought about that this afternoon, but it seemed like kind of a weird idea because most of our mics are directional. Would you point a card away from the bells (maybe pointing out at the courtyard?) and expect to get pretty good results? I don't know because I've never tried it. It's certainly something to consider though, if you think there might be some benefit to it. I suppose it would capture some of the ambience that the other mics might miss?...

Yes, I would give it a shot -- There's nothing wrong with experimentation.
If it doesn't work out don't record it. Don't even do it and deside later.
If it does sound good and you blend them in with the other more traditional mic placements, put those "weirdo" positioned mic(s) out of phase!!!

Hey, IMO, if you cannot get some spread (distance) on those mics, You must try anything possible to get a more ambient sound on those bells. The direct (only) close mic'ing technique sounds like a real drag to me. YMMV!

Some folks totally disagree with my miking techniques, but my work speaks for its self.
I don't really care what others may think about it...

Unless it sounds like total crap that is!

[chadly]

I've had problems doing a carillon gig too. This just occurred to me: could you shotgun mic it from another building?

Just a thought.

[Remoteness]

Maybe with a real shotgun mic like the 816...

What we call "shotguns" are really spot mics.
They will pick up a lot of the enviromental noise he wants to avoid.

[yawatta]

There are a few parallel buildings next to the carillon at Belmont, but if I were to go anywhere to try and mic it from far away would be from the roof of the Gabhart Student Center (where the cafeteria and safety & security are) or the 2nd floor walkway on said building.

Or while Dr. Shadinger is playing, walk around and find where it sounds good. Put some mics there.

Dirk- sorry I never persisted in trying to get together with you. Hope the gig goes great.

[Remoteness]

Dirk,

Remember, don't be affraid to try something new or different!

[tnjazz]

Originally Posted by yawatta

There are a few parallel buildings next to the carillon at Belmont, but if I were to go anywhere to try and mic it from far away would be from the roof of the Gabhart Student Center (where the cafeteria and safety & security are) or the 2nd floor walkway on said building.

Thanks. This was our thought as well, although when they insisted the performance be close miked we kind of wrote off the idea of running two separate setups. I agree that the roof of the student center would be a pretty good choice though. We may still do something like that, just to see what happens.

Steve, thanks for the encouragement! I'll be working with a partner on this one, so we can run two separate setups if we decide it's a good possibility. There's no option we won't consider, right up until showtime. Weather will of course play a factor in our decisions as well.

I'll be sure to post back and let everyone know how it went!
Thanks to all,
Dirk

[Remoteness]

So, are your ears still ringing?

How did it go?

[tnjazz]

Originally Posted by Remoteness

So, are your ears still ringing?

How did it go?

Heh I'm starting the mixing today, as a matter of fact.

I tried to take pics to document the mic placement and all but I'm no photographer (like you, Steve!)

If anyone's interested, the photos are here: http://www.bigpurpledog.com/images/carillon.zip

Basically we used a stereo pair of Beyerdynamic MC930 for the top bells, pointed down at them (ran the stand up to about 25 feet in the tower!).

For the mids and lows we used Avenson STO-2 and we took Steve's suggestion and pointed them away from the bells, facing outward.

For the lows we used a pair of Beyerdynamic MC740 in omni mode. In hindsight both the pattern and placement were a mistake, as we got tons of noise from the pulleys. Luckily the Avensons did a fine job of capturing the mids and lows, so we'll probably just scratch those tracks.

We also ran the permanently installed top mic (I was told it was a Shure SM63, but I have my doubts about that) and just for grins we threw a cheapie Apex 210 ribbon on the lows as its counterpart. As expected, those tracks pretty much suck. They might add