Portable Recording In A Large Concert Hall

[Fadeal]

Hi All
woundering if you could help me out.

I've been asked to do some recordings at a large concert hall of live performances ranging from full orchestras and choirs with no pa support to 5 peice world music performances with pa support. Also trying not to obstruct the adience's view.
Im to do these recordings for a live cd that is to be sold at the hall.
I presently run a recording studio so i've got somewhere to bring the recordings back to. it's just the portable side im laking.

I've got myself a high end PC laptop running cubase SX and am looking for a audio interface to suit.
so far im thinking portability and upto 8 inputs and my plan was to get a Mackie 1604 to go into it which would give me my 8 pre amped ins. Now im not sure if this is the best way to do it, the budget's not that important but at the same time, because the un-p.a'ed stuff will be relying on my mics i was thinking the money should be spent there!! The mics i have at the moment are; 2 x Rodes NT3's, 3 x AKG se300b's, sm 58's, sm 57's, AKG s3000 and a AKG Solid tube. So nothing to great!
So, what mics would be best and whats the best way to record a 30-60 piece orchestra or choir whilst trying not to obstruct the audiences view? The acoustics are very good so would i get away with a stereo pair at the back of the room? I sort of thought it might sound too distant? Any thoughts would be much apprieciated. Thanks

[fifthcircle]

You'll find tons of answers to this question in the acoustic music/remote forum...

In short- hang condenser microphones from the ceiling. You'll likely do best with a stereo pair perhaps with a flanking set out to either side. I use Schoeps. DPA, Neumann, etc.. for this but being that this is the low end forum, I doubt you've got those in your collection. Can you rent, perhaps?

As for the groups with PA, get a splitter and split the mics between recording and FOH. Mix as you would any other album. If your overhead mics are hung, you may want to add a touch of those in for ambiece...

--Ben

[jetglo]

My first thought is the Mid-Side micing technique.. which uses a cardioid and a figure-eight. I have gotten VERY nice live tracks in a large room using this technique.. great stereo image with great detail. Keeping the micing simple keeps phase issues in hand and is quite unobtrusive.
Cardioid condensor points to center, and figure eight faces 90 degrees out to sides (as FifthCircle also says). Record as two tracks, bounce figure-eight track to third track and flip that track's polarity.
Your stereo image is increased or decreased based on your "center" level. The mics must be coincident.. one directly over or under the other.
My understanding is this is an old technique developed for big band/orchestras.

Newbie 2cents.

[DCtoDaylight]

As noted, there are a number of ways to skin the cat...but in general, you'll make your life easier by keeping the number of mics low (like, two).

One option to consider (especially for the non-amped stuff) is baffled omnis, *if* you can get your mics set up quite close to the performers.

The idea is that you put a pair of omni mics on a stereo bar, with a foam pad or other separating baffle between them. As with any stereo pair recording you have to do a good bit of experimentation to get the placement right.

The cool thing about baffled omnis is that they give you a very spacious, natural, present sound, with good separation, so in a good-sounding hall they can be very nice. Kind of like binaural, but more compatible with speakers. They are prone to picking up too much ambience, though, which is why you need to get the mics right up close to the performers.

Not everyone's cup of tea, but I've had good luck in several live situations with them.

You'll definitely want to get yourself into some rehearsal sessions and experiment...but it sounds like a fun gig - enjoy!

[tINY]

For pres and converters, I'd look at the Mackie Onyx / Firewire stuff (the 400F would be nice if you can get D.O. from the PA and there are 4 good pre-amps there).

As far as mics in the Low End for large ensembles, I can't say for sure... I have heard decent recordings with Octavias and Rodes but never plays with them myself.



-tINY

[Fadeal]

My feeling is a bit of fifthcircle's idea and jetglo's idea because if i record with all six mics i can then choose the ones that suit better i hadn't thought of fifthcircle's idea and the useful thing about that one is the mics would be way above the audience so the mix between the to would be more realistic and having the front pair and a further back pair would mean i would have lots of control over the room ambience. so Jetglo, how far away would i need to have the M&S technique for best results?? The stage is about 60 foot wide.

DCtoDaylight, I have never heard of the baffled Omni idea before, thanks for that my only thought about it would be how could i position them whilst keeping them out of the way of the audience especially if i need to get them close.

Keeping all this in mind my thought are to have my pair of NT3's as the closer ceiling stereo pair as they have a better bottom end responce and have my SE300b's as the rear pair. Then have my AKG solid tube and my m-audio Sputnik as the M&S technique. Record all and see what happens,. Or do people think that these mics wont be good enough and i should move to more high end mics???

tINY, i have never tried the Onyx range! Are they an upgrade from the original mackie desks??
The F400 looks good, i was originally thinking the Motu Ultralite or the Traveler. Any one know how these three's pre amps compare??

Thank you all for your advise it's much appreciated.
Fadeal

[tINY]

The onyx is a big step up from the VLZ pre-amps. They have a line of onxy compact mixers with a fire-wire interface too. But, unless you need a new mixer for another reason, you should probably just get a 1U box.

I have the 896HD and it sounds good. I imagine the Traveler is the same circuitry with a different configuration. If you don't have and apple, consider something other than MOTU - I got mine to work but it was a PITA.

And don't get the mics too high, comb filtering off the ceiling is bad. It may not be an issue in a properly high theatre. You get a lot of absorbtion from the audience, so the comb filtering from the floor usually isn't a problem (though crowd noise can be).




-tINY

[jetglo]

I had my M/S rig .. a board with two steel pipes.. each mic stand with removed bottom could then slide into a pipe and not move.. this would ensure the mics did not shift and could be replicable. I recorded a drummer with this set up fairly close to his set.. within 2 feet. For a string quartet I wanted more roomy sound and was somewhere between 10 and 12 feet out. I am guessing you need to be further out just because of the larger groups and maybe for the room and discretion.
I had the luxury of sliding my apparatus around until I found the right spot. The room was not very live.. curtains, cloth seats etc but no bodies except myself and the performers.
If you are not going to be able to do a dry run during rehearsals in that space and if I were in your shoes, I would pay a small group to set up and play for you to practice the set up and get to know the room before embarking on a contract to record a series of live shows. Then at least you could make educated guesses for deadening as the room fills with audience.

[DrDeltaM]

Originally Posted by fifthcircle

You'll find tons of answers to this question in the acoustic music/remote forum...

I'll move this thread to there

[Fadeal]

Thanks tINY
I was wondering if i could get away with just a interface that has pre's but i think im gonna need the 8 inputs in the long run which means something like the 896HD or a F400 or Traveler with a desk means if i know i only need 4 inputs i can leave the desk behind.
Hey, im a sound engineer, i can always find a use for an analog desk even if its to feed my toys addiction.
.......Umm don't want to seem stupid but whats comb filtering??

The hall is kind of a very large barn, the ceiling is HIGH and the mics would be hanging mid or even lower which would still leave 40 from the floor so i don't think there'll be problems there. The adience won't be a problem i mean classical doesn't normally get that football stadium effect going!!

So you've had problems getting Motu stuff to work on PC??

One more thing, Any one know anything about Trident Audio 8T desks??

[digital_wiz]

>> Umm don't want to seem stupid but whats comb filtering?

If you google "microphone comb filtering" you will get many hits including:
http://www.prosoundweb.com/install/s...se/phase.shtml
http://www.realtraps.com/art_spaces.htm

Also lots of good info in these articles:
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/1997...reomiking.html
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/1997...mictechs2.html

[pkautzsch]

No problems with MOTU 896HD so far with me. Pres are clean and have no character.
Other All-In-One-Box solutions might be Presonus Firepod or the Onyx F1200 for LOTS of channels and flexibility. For orchestra + choir, 12 or more mics is sort of normal.

I would not go for baffled setups. More flexible would be spaced omnis, probably about 12 ft high, 6ft back from stage, 2 ft spacing (to start with), plus flanking omnis or cardioids.
When hanging, you could also consider something in the Mercury/Cozart type of setup. Tried that a few weeks ago with GREAT results. You'll need a close-ish hall pair though, if you have soloists, because the 3 main mics are *behind* the soloists. A shotgun mic pointing to the centre of stage front can be nice too. Put up a widely spaced pair of cardioids or wide cardioids over the choir area.
As to mics: if there is enough budget, go for Schoeps CCM-21 for choir, maybe Neumann KM183 or Schoeps CCM-2S for Mercury 3-mic curtain, and also as close room pair.
If there is MORE budget, take KM100 + AK30 capsule + that cable thing between body and capsule, so the audience will only see that small capsule hanging on a thin cable. Similar thing exists for Schoeps (Colette system) as well.

[donsolo]

Originally Posted by Fadeal

Hey, im a sound engineer, ...
.......Umm don't want to seem stupid but whats comb filtering??

Dude, I feel like this every day but for other things.

All this Crazy M-S processing is really my bane right now...makes me feel dumb.

Welcome to the club, we're all still learning.

[sonare]

Originally Posted by pkautzsch

More flexible would be spaced omnis, probably about 12 ft high, 6ft back from stage, 2 ft spacing (to start with)

Depending on hall 12ft may yield a sound that needs a little more presence and articulation. I have found that 9-10ft high works better as a starting height.

Of course, this is all according to taste, and if your ears are the final arbiter, then there it is!

Rich