how to deal w/ live recording too loud drums

[kurtr2]

wonder if someone can help:
mixing a live record. jazz quintet. everything sounds great, except sometimes the drummer goes off and gets really loud. having trouble with these moments, dealing with drums in the piano mics and other mics. i want the drums to stay reasonably balanced throughout these parts notwithstanding the fact that it was played the way it was played. i think i need some heavy limiting on the drums but need it to be completely transparent. was thinking about the atomic squeezebox. what would you recommend?
thanks,
kurt

[Protools Guy]

Do you have fader automation? IMHO, riding faders would be a much better way to control this problem.

[max cooper]

This may go to personal preference, but I think you're on the wrong track.

Yes, first I would automate some faders. But if you want to use a box, think about what you want to happen.

A limiter flattens out the peaks, generally speaking.

I'd rather compress the dynamic range smoothly for a jazz record.

Like, when the drums get louder than "X" I want the volume to increase less by a factor of "Y".

Hey, that sounds like a classic job for a compressor.

Try a GML.

[kurtr2]

which compressors would be right for this job? stc-8 perhaps?

[danasti]

Originally Posted by kurtr2

wonder if someone can help:
mixing a live record. jazz quintet. everything sounds great, except sometimes the drummer goes off and gets really loud. , dealing with drums in the piano mics and other mics

what would you recommend?
thanks,
kurt

Is this project already recorded and you are now mixing it? Is the primary problem the other mics?

If you still are tracking you can make use of gobos and position them around the drums, and the mics on the piano, to block what is coming into those mics. Finding the best places to set everyone up in the room, the right mic patterns and placements are key for his kit coming through on other mics. You could put an acoustic blanket over the piano.

I stole this photo from Bruce Swediens wonderful guest forum. It's how he "wrapped up the kick on a session with Omar Hakim.



Omar Hakim's bass drum from the Jennifer Lopez session

Work with the drummer. Explain to him/her that they need to be aware. Show them specific places where they are losing their control and the volume is spiking.

It's a delicate balance; getting a truely inspired performance while engaging the players senses of awareness so they keep themselves under control. That's why a select few producers get so much fortune and fame - it's as much a people skill as a gear skill. Maybe even more of a people skill - trust - leadership - comfort - confidence - respecting you enough to listen and carry out what you are asking of them.

Are you tracking to a multitrack? How many piano mics? Drum mics? How big is the room? Etc...

Good Luck!

[fifthcircle]

There isn't much that you can do now that everything is recorded. In general, in the recording process it is best to position microphones and use microphones that will minimize bleed. You'll never get rid of it completely, but you can make it managable.

Go to the remote forum and see Steve Remote's post on "Virtual Gobos." It is a great approach to dealing with exactly that problem.

--Ben

[kurtr2]

its already recorded. it is a live gig from the village vanguard in nyc. 12 mics. guitar, acoustic bass, piano drums, tenor saxophone. need to tame the drums, but they are in all the mics. if i can push the volume of the drums down then the other things will come up. maybe the stc-8 will help.

thanks for the link to the remote section, i will check it out.

kurt

[Flying_Dutchman]

Originally Posted by kurtr2

wonder if someone can help:
mixing a live record. jazz quintet. everything sounds great, except sometimes the drummer goes off and gets really loud. having trouble with these moments, dealing with drums in the piano mics and other mics. i want the drums to stay reasonably balanced throughout these parts notwithstanding the fact that it was played the way it was played. i think i need some heavy limiting on the drums but need it to be completely transparent. was thinking about the atomic squeezebox. what would you recommend?
thanks,
kurt

IS it just a singel hit problem?

Well, duck the other mics. Drumagog is good for this.... Could help.

[fifthcircle]

I'll add this to my previous reply (as it wasn't much help)...

Mixing in a situation like this is a loose-loose situation... Nothing good comes of it, only less bad. If the recording is done and this is an issue, rather than the unsucessful issue of fighting bleed, it is best to accept it and make the best of a bad situation.

I've found that in recordings that i've mixed like this, you can do a few things with horn and piano mics (like high/low pass, shelving, etc...) that will minimze frequencies. Otherwise, you may just have to turn off the drum mics or lower them so much that they are just used a textural touch-up for a bit of definition. Use the bleed in your other mics and get as much as you can out of it. Also, manual ducking when players aren't playing will be a huge help.

I did a big band mix a couple years back of this awesome concert with folks like James Moody, Phil Woods, Shirley Horne, Monty Alexander, Ron Carter and a bunch of other big musicians (they were all soloists on a concert for Jonny Pate's birthday). The hall was very live and no gobos were put up in the concert/recording process. I found that I lowered the drum mics by a lot and used the bleed in the piano and horn mics to make the drum sound work. On the songs where the drums were totally out of control, I ducked every mic when it wasn't being used. It is amazing how much tighter the sound got with that process. Moving levels down by 8-10 dB (or just enough to not hear the ambient change) proved to make all the difference in the world. Still wasn't great, but it is what was needed.

--Ben

[kurtr2]

excellent advice, thank you. what about using a transparent compressor on the 2 bus that will be mostly working on the drums as they go past the balanced threshold relative to the other instruments? would the cranesong stc-8 be a good tool for this?
also do you know which compressors work well with piano? jazz piano...
k

[danasti]

Originally Posted by kurtr2

its already recorded. it is a live gig from the village vanguard in nyc. 12 mics. guitar, acoustic bass, piano drums, tenor saxophone. need to tame the drums, but they are in all the mics. if i can push the volume of the drums down then the other things will come up. maybe the stc-8 will help.

thanks for the link to the remote section, i will check it out.

kurt

The stc-8 isn't going to anything much at all (it'll likely make it much worse used by itself). Since the drums are already mixed into the piano track, a compressor/limiter like the stc-8 is not your friend. The only type of compression that will work is a multiband comp. That can lower the drum frequencies and enhance the (piano, bass, sax) others.

What you want is to go into each individual "problem" track (such as the piano) with very nice eq to find and knock down/out some of the most excessive/obvious frequencies. You could try the side-chain on a compressor with a eq pattern that will up the frequencies you want louder.

It's a very delicate balance - keeping the piano, sax and bass - while taming the drums. So you have to be careful and not cut too much or it will be really flat and lifeless.

You have to do that for every recorded track but once you find a good eq pattern it should be a starting point of all other tracks.

You could also send those tracks to an mastering engineer who might have some better ideas and solutions than me. They probably will have a very precise eq or eqs and know just what to do. If this project means alot to you, I recommend this route.

[fifthcircle]

Originally Posted by kurtr2

excellent advice, thank you. what about using a transparent compressor on the 2 bus that will be mostly working on the drums as they go past the balanced threshold relative to the other instruments? would the cranesong stc-8 be a good tool for this?

Don't think it will really help much. You may get a slightly tighter sound, but it may be at the expense of something else. Really your only chance of salvaging this is a very careful mix where you get rid of everything that isn't needed at a given time and where you embrace your bleed rather than completely fight it.

also do you know which compressors work well with piano? jazz piano...
k

None of the above... I'd never compress a piano if I could avoid it. Perhaps a bit on a bass and perhaps a bit with a horn soloist to avoid radical volume shifts, but I try to preserve all ensemble dynamics in a mix.

--Ben

[MBishopSFX]

First, time-align all the other tracks relative to the drum tracks; i.e. you'll be aligning the drum leakage with the drums source. The leakage is less noticeable without the delays.

Second, as noted earlier, embrace the leakage. Just blend in enough of the drums source tracks to fill out the mix. Because leakage tends to jump out erratically somewhat, try compressing the source drum tracks a bit to hold them steady within the mix.

The Village Vanguard is a tough place to record a loud group. It's too small and the ceilings too low. I had to record Slide Hampton and the Jazz Masters there and the stage volume would pin you against the back wall. Jon Faddis was nailing us with screech trumpet throughout the night. It all turned out OK, but it was a tough job!

Good luck!

[u b k]

in the future, a car battery wired to the drummers testicles, triggered by the clip light on your a/d, can work wonders.


gregoire
del
ubk
.

[Flying_Dutchman]

Originally Posted by u b i k

in the future, a car battery wired to the drummers testicles, triggered by the clip light on your a/d, can work wonders.


gregoire
del
ubk
.

Whats the best car battery to do this ?

[84K]

Don't mean to be a dick, but why not just put pads on the mics and compress tastefully?

I would recommend the ASB for that ap.

[danasti]

Originally Posted by 84K

Don't mean to be a dick, but why not just put pads on the mics and compress tastefully?

I would recommend the ASB for that ap.

He's already recorded it. On the individual tracks, such as piano, the drums are louder and spike over the piano at certain points. So it's already on tape or that would be the way to go...

edit: it's either rerecord it or try some post techniques. personally, I'd rerecord it...

[84K]

Originally Posted by danasti

edit: it's either rerecord it or try some post techniques. personally, I'd rerecord it...

Me too. I was talking about for the future... But I guess I should have said that

[u b k]

Originally Posted by Flying_Dutchman

Whats the best car battery to do this ?

http://www.powermastermotorsports.co...y_charger.html

600 cranking amps... smell the burn!


gregoire
del
ubk
.

[Flying_Dutchman]

Originally Posted by u b i k

http://www.powermastermotorsports.co...y_charger.html

600 cranking amps... smell the burn!


gregoire
del
ubk
.

Thanks ! I´m not sure witch cables would fit... I´ll try the mogami, the monsters 1000s and the vovox... Ill keep the result posted.

[taturana]

Originally Posted by u b i k

http://www.powermastermotorsports.co...y_charger.html

600 cranking amps... smell the burn!


gregoire
del
ubk
.

to me the vintage ones were a lot better.... not the crap sold nowadays....