bottom line on UPS for small remotes?

[cleantone]

I searched through pages of material here and learned a lot. I didn't really get a final answer on the subject though. I cannot really afford some boutique type of UPS unit. I gather that the square wave AC is not at all ideal. I'm currently working on a TV show and a month or so ago our sound mixer had me buy him one for his rig (2 Fostex decks and other things). He just told me to go to Staples and pick one up that was rated for a certain voltage (forget how much). I never knew that they do not give pure sine wave AC. I'm no electrician unfortunatly. What if you run one behind a power conditioner? Would that help the AC go from square to sine?

I now record to hard disk without a computer. I would like to have the whole rig, preamps and all protected. I wouldn't need to run it for a long time after an outage (though it would be nice to be able to) but I do want some protection.

What is my deal?

Thanks so much!

[Remoteness]

I believe the sound engineer must have asked you for a particular Wattage not voltage. Staples usually cares 115V units. True online UPs can produce a pure sinewave output.

A power conditioner will not help you. It's about how the UPS converts the DC back to AC -- I'm not an electrician either...

I hope this helped.

In the live recording arena where you only have one shot at getting it recorded, I'd rather have a standard (non sinewave) UPS than no UPS any day. But, that's my opinion.

[cleantone]

Thanks! Do you have a fancy boutique one yourself? From some of what I read I gathered that the square wave AC would not be good for audio gear. Like amps, preamps, recording devices etc. I also gathered that it they would pass the square wave only when engaged which would be much better than gear powering down forcefully. Am I right? Should I pick one up then? Other suggestions? Thanks!

[cdog]

The main thing you are protecting with a UPS is the computer.

The gear has fuses that will blow if it doesn't like what it sees.

[Remoteness]

The computer is a big part of it but, I also want to protect anything that may affect the lost of my recording when the power goes.

Who cares if the computer didn't die (when you lost your power feed) when everything else turned off? IMO, anything that's mission critical should be on the UPS.

[Gilliland]

Originally Posted by Remoteness

Who cares if the computer didn't die (when you lost your power feed) when everything else turned off? IMO, anything that's mission critical should be on the UPS.

True, but there are some cost/benefit issues to considered.

In a remote recording, you should be drawing your power from the same source that powers the house/monitor system (to avoid ground loop problems). So if there is a power outage, it's going to affect the event fairly dramatically. At that point, it may not matter if your mic pres still have power. But it DOES matter if your recording device has power, since you may lose some or all of the prior recording with a power failure.

I still run with my pres on the UPS as well as my recorder whenever possible, but the recorder is the important device to keep powered.

If you can afford a high-end UPS that delivers clean sine-wave AC, that's certainly the best choice. But keep in mind that you're really only depending on the UPS for a very brief time period - probably just long enough to stop and save the recording. A basic and inexpensive UPS may meet your needs just fine. Mine was under $50 and does everthing I need. So far, I haven't met up with an actual power failure, but I've tested it often and it keeps everything running without interruption. As long as it gives me five minutes or so to shut down, I'm comfortable.

But if you're in a situation where your power is vulnerable independent of the main event, and if losing the recording would cause a major loss of revenue, then you probably want to invest in something larger and cleaner that can power your entire rig for a longer period of time.

One more thing to consider - one of the most important devices to keep on the UPS may be a lamp - so you have light to work with while troubleshooting.

[Remoteness]

Well said, but what happens when someone pulls your feeder (or something to that affect) and everyone else is still powered up?

Also, a standard incandescent light bulb is very inefficient. IMO, I would not put a standard lamp on the UPS unless you have a huge UPS with plenty of battery power. I'd stick to a flash light or consider an LED lighting system if you must put that lamp on the UPS.

[Gilliland]

Originally Posted by Remoteness

Well said, but what happens when someone pulls your feeder (or something to that affect) and everyone else is still powered up?

Also, a standard incandescent light bulb is very inefficient. IMO, I would not put a standard lamp on the UPS unless you have a huge UPS with plenty of battery power. I'd stick to a flash light or consider an LED lighting system if you must put that lamp on the UPS.

I suppose that's a possibility. You can't eliminate every vulnerabilty. Like I said, it's a cost/benefit analysis. I like to think that the crews that I work with are smart enough not to pull a power cord in the middle of a show. However, I do keep my pres on the UPS, just in case.

As for the lamp, I use a small halogen lamp. It's probably not very efficient, but as long as the lamp, pres, and recorder don't overload the UPS, it's OK.

The "bottom line" (as it says in the thread title) is that you have to determine what you want to protect against, weigh the odds of each possibility, and then decide what you're willing to spend to prevent it.

[Remoteness]

As you may already know, anything is possible especially when you do not expect it.

Most crews ARE smart enough not to pull the power during the performance. What about after the performance? This has happened to use too many timesto take it lightly. Only the real pros will ask you if they can cut power.

Other times it may not have anything to do with the crews you're working with. Operator error or an innocent mistake can take you down. Anything is possible when you least expect it.

For me, it's about the amount of time I got on the UPS battery(s). As of yet, I don't put lamps into our UPS. But, it is totally cool if it works for you. As they said, YMMV.

I really dig where you're coming from. You are on point and THAT IS what really matters.
Your last statement says it all. Well said my GS friend -- Well said indeed!

[TyRip]

Even the cheap UPS systems still offer pure, clean power to flow through them, correct?

Is it only in the event of an outage and relying on the battery backup that you get this less than ideal form of power delivery?



Thanks.

[Remoteness]

It really depends on the UPS.

Just for the record…

UPS is an acronym for uninterruptible power supply (or source.) It’s basically a battery backup.

When you loss power this device maintains a continuous stream of power or at least until the batteries dies out. The UPS switches from the utility power to its own battery power source almost instantaneously when a power failure occurs.

You incorporate the UPS between your (utility) power source and the equipment (the load) it’s protecting.

Remember, UPSs come in all shapes and sizes ranging from very small (around 200 VA) to units which will power entire systems in the megawatt range.

A UPS is not a generator -- It is not usually intended to handle very long power outages.

There are a few designs of UPS to consider -- On-line; off-line (standby) and other units that are not necessarily relative to our needs so I’m not going to mention them…

An on-line UPS continuously powers the load from DC batteries.

A standby (off-line) UPS powers the load when the power source fails by switching to it’s batteries until the power returns to an acceptable level. Most (garden variety 1 KVA or so) UPS units sold today are standby UPSs. Smaller standby UPS units usually make use of a modified square wave inverter and are more often than not designed for home use.

Double (or dual) conversion UPSs convert incoming AC to DC and then convert the DC back to AC connected to the load. The directly connected batteries provide an excellent filter for removing line noise by isolating the load from the incoming power and regenerate the sine wave. Because the equipment is always powered by the inverter, when power fails there is no transfer time. The UPS doesn’t need to switch from utility power to battery power.

Some UPS units are designed with an automatic voltage regulator that steps-up or steps-down the incoming voltage without switching to battery backup. The inverter is always connected to the output of the UPS. When utility power is there the inverter charges the batteries. When the utility power fails the UPS provides power to the load.

Check out the MGE; APC; ETA; TRIPPLITE websites for more information!

I hope this helped!

[cleantone]

Thanks for the input. I laughed this weekend when I was reading the manual to my new hard disk. There was a section that talked about using a UPS unit. It made no mention of what type to buy or any drawbacks of using one. I guess for now I'll get one for my preamps and recorder. I have only had power issues a couple of times over the years. Once was post gig as mentioned above. The venue shut off all of the FOH juice right after the set. I had an external HD still processing the files and all of the other gear shut off on me. Lost far too much of the files that night. Had a DAT backup of the two track submix but that was still not fun.

I will probably go to Best Buy as I have some gift cards. I'm not good with electricity. I want a balence between being too heavy and bulky and keeping me up and running for a bit. What sort of wattage should I think about?

[Gilliland]

Originally Posted by Remoteness

As you may already know, anything is possible especially when you do not expect it.

Most crews ARE smart enough not to pull the power during the performance. What about after the performance? This has happened to us too many times to take it lightly. Only the real pros will ask you if they can cut power.

Anything is possible when you least expect it.

That's certainly true! Careful planning goes a long way, but Mr. Murphy is always lurking.

If the power gets cut after the performance, then the pres are no longer an issue.

I'm fortunate to generally work with pros who DO ask. In fact, they often joke about it ahead of time. But they've never let me down.

But I think we're basically in full agreement. Our circumstances are somewhat different, so our choices may be somewhat different. But the process that we used to determine our needs is pretty much identical.

[foldback]

Exeltech makes an 1100 watt inverter that costs about $800 not including batteries (model XP1100), they also make some smaller capacity models.

I've installed their MX series on cruise ships for sound system backup. They produce extremely clean pure sine wave power. I use an XP1100 in my RV (recording vehicle) to power all my sound equipment. Be sure to check the wattage of your gear with an amprobe so you're sure you're not overloading your UPS. I have a parallel pair of 12 volt batteries in my RV that drives the Exeltech. These are super clean power sources and I run on it full time when recording.

http://www.exeltech.com/

I use an Alesis HD24XR, if you lose power to one of these while in record, your hard disk will probably be corrupted and you will be sad.

I'd recommend a system that has enough capacity to handle all your audio equipment so you don't end up with mixed grounds or wacky 60hz phasing issues (whoa, did you get shocked, did you feel that?)

Caution, a UPS can kill you, even when it's not plugged in.

[Remoteness]

Originally Posted by cleantone

...What sort of wattage should I think about?

Take the number of Watts the unit produces then multiply it by at least 50% (25% if you're not into over kill) and that's how much power the UPS should handle.

Also, the larger the battery capacity the longer time you have. you can add multiple batteries to extend the time.

[Gilliland]

Originally Posted by foldback

I use an Alesis HD24XR, if you lose power to one of these while in record, your hard disk will probably be corrupted and you will be sad.

True. You should always use a UPS with the HD24, and with most hard disk recorders for that matter.

In the case of the HD24, though, we now have utilities that can do a pretty good job of recovery in the event of a catastrophic failure like this. With Marc Brevoort's HD24 utilities, it's a lot easier to recover a damaged HD24 disk than it was a year ago.

[big country]

what about getting a couple of car batteries and hooking them up to
a inverter and running every thing of that.
I have been thinking about doing this for a while
I have a pretty cool case that can hold two gel bats and a charger with a
inverter
I would put it in my live rig but the thing weighs to much as it is.

[big country]

http://www.batterystuff.com/inverters/


hang out with a black truck driver for a day and go to town!

[Remoteness]

You'll need a lot of batteries to power a complete rig.

[big country]

Originally Posted by Remoteness

You'll need a lot of batteries to power a complete rig.

how could you figure it out.

[big country]

im only running monitors,a screen monitor, a couple of pres,a firestudio and
a rack of pres with converters with a laptop.

YOU FIGURE YOU NEED A SOLID 3 HOURS BEFORE PLUGING IT INTO THE CHARGER!
SHOULD WORK.

thats three hours of down time plus you know your getting pure A/C no ground issues ever

[Jim vanBergen]

Originally Posted by Gilliland

I suppose that's a possibility. You can't eliminate every vulnerabilty. Like I said, it's a cost/benefit analysis. I like to think that the crews that I work with are smart enough not to pull a power cord in the middle of a show. However, I do keep my pres on the UPS, just in case.

My crew was very smart but could not stop a house electrician from killing the mains power (and disconnecting my feeder) while my client had the guest artist doing overdubs in the truck.

Fortunately, we were back up in five minutes and the original content was good.

From that point on, it was UPS for everything mission critical, like Steve says.

For some installtions in southern Florida with flaky power, I have designed systems that use power conditioners into that provide a solid, regulated 120v output. From that I feed a UPS. It's simple, and effective if you use good gear that don't have MOV's- I stay away from almost all Furmans (well, I will use them as a rack light, but not to distribute power). SurgEx and TrippLite for me, thank you -- no MOV (metal oxide varistors) which blow easily and let the next power spike thru to your gear! stike stike stike

Jim

[aussie_techie]

the state of your power is very important aswell as not loosing power, if all your running is a computer a square wave isnt going to hurt it but sensitive audio equipment can be a different story especially with converters and digital clock and partiucularly with manufactures tryingto make things cheeper the PSU is usualy the first place they do so.

the UPS you dont want a 'stand-by' or 'offline' type UPS they output a square wave and when change over will have a breif time of no power. most power supplies will assorb this fine but its not ideal. most will also switch to the battery if the voltage drops.

a true online double conversion UPS is the best way to go. all power is converted to DC and back to AC again meaninf the UPS/battery and inverters are always in the line this also means you are ensured of a true sine wave regardless of the incomming power. a double conversion UPS has the added advantage of protected against all other power problems aswell. but they are just to expencive for most applications and are in efficent.

a line-interactive UPS still only uses a single inverter but should be putting out a sine wave (unlikley to be as pure as a double conversions UPS) the time to switch is minimal and they should take under/over voltages without draining the battery.

there are a few other variations
Delta conversion is somewhere between a line interave and an online UPS, im not sure of the details as they are relitivly new. some manufactures call it an online UPS, but it is not the same an a double conversion UPS so dont get carried away in the marketing.

i wouldnt be using anything with large tansformers or a fly wheel either.

[squeegybug]

I bought an online sinewave Liebert UPS here:

http://www.upsforless.com/index.asp?...TS&Category=33

Good shop, easy to deal with, good prices. We used to use Lieberts on HP9000 mainframe systems, they are very well engineered and reliable.

Mine is the GXT-2000, don't see any of those in stock at the moment. Be aware they are *very* loud and heavy (about 80-90 lb), so not sure how one like this would suit your remote setup. I just put it in a machine room, powering my entire studio and a separate PC/laser printer. On wall power failure it has run up to 30 minutes perfectly. Don't know how long it would take to exhaust the batteries, and of course that depends on the load.

There is no question in my mind that this is one of the best (if not the best) additions I have ever made to my studio. The audio is truly smoother and fuller sounding, I have made comparison recordings to confirm this. Same thing, perhaps even more, on playback. Digital systems really like continuous sinewave power.

And of course the obvious advantages of avoiding interruptions.

Steve

[cleantone]

So how about a UPS behind a True Sine Wave Inverter? Would that make my rig happy? I assume it would not only benifit from the TSWInverter but if the UPS needs to kick in, the TSWI would sine the square?

[jayf]

Are the true online UPSs noisy, e.g., motorized fan noise?

[Jim vanBergen]

most UPS's are quite noisy. Sad, but true.

[cleantone]

most UPS's are quite noisy. Sad, but true.

External noise or a noise introduced into the audio path?

[Jim vanBergen]

noisy fans or transformers. NO induced noise on audio signals, in fact, cleaner than before.

[cleantone]

NO induced noise on audio signals, in fact, cleaner than before.

Than what is all the talk about the square wave AC about? I'm getting more confused the more I look into this.

I'd like to repeat:

So how about a UPS behind a True Sine Wave Inverter? Would that make my rig happy? I assume it would not only benifit from the TSWInverter but if the UPS needs to kick in, the TSWI would sine the square?