Cadac J-type

[Strutchopper]

Any thoughts about these for tracking and mixing in a studio? There is one made in 1997 for sale that I'm curious about. Anything I should think about before deciding to buy it or not?

Cheers,
Patrik

[dementedchord]

they are considered by many to be the ultimate in live production... so while you'll be getting an incredibly clean path ... you'll also be getting routing facilities that you'll never use except perhaps as a work around for the routing you wish you had... if you can work it into your set=up though thats an encredible board...

[Strutchopper]

Does anybody know how they sound? I mainly record rock/metal.
Are they rock solid or do they need lots of maintenance?

[shangoe]

you should get all the parts. things like pots are all high quality. so in case you need to replace some, that will cost you a lot. cadac is top notch...

...you have the same icon like me and like cadac, are we some twins devided after birth?...

[Jim vanBergen]

Originally Posted by Strutchopper

Does anybody know how they sound? I mainly record rock/metal.
Are they rock solid or do they need lots of maintenance?

They are excellent, super-clean signal path. Great for tracking & mixing. Vishay pots, P&G faders, great components. You WILL want a qualified console tech to set it up, like most good consoles. The power supplies are massive, and should be put in an equipment room.

Cadac is the monitor console of the Rolling Stones and was the console Van Halen toured with for many many years. They sound STUNNING. You'll find it between a Calrec, a Trident and a Neve.

Most systems come with a decent amount of spare parts (ask for the spare modules, spare faders and the small parts kit). If its coming from somewhere close, use the same tech who is going to dismantle the desk to install it for you. if not, email Cadac in Luton, England and ask Tony for a qualified Cadac tech in your area.

The Broadway & West-End theatre markets carry copious spare parts for these desks, so finding parts for a J is no problem. A lot of the console tech who work on these in NYC for the broadway market end up buying them used from the rental shops because they are such amazing sounding desks. If I could fit one in my studio, I'd do it!

Hope this helps.

jim

[Strutchopper]

Originally Posted by shangoe

...you have the same icon like me and like cadac, are we some twins devided after birth?...

Who knows? :-)
Do you have a Harley Chopper too?

[Strutchopper]

Originally Posted by Jim vanBergen

They are excellent, super-clean signal path. Great for tracking & mixing.

Thanks for the info!

Sounds like it will be a HUGE step up from my Mackie!

How about routing? Since it's a live desk it doesn't have "Tape in". I need to use the DI. I hope that will work.

[Jim vanBergen]

All Cadac J's are totally custom-configured. 16 busses, 12 auxes. What config is the board you are considering? The seller might specify as: 54, 65, 42+38, 44+28, etc slot console with 38 mono inputs, 16x32 matrix and master control (CCM & aux master modules require around 3-4 slots of the frame, multiple frames hook together) just an an example.

Standard input is XLR with TRS balanced inputs & outputs and an XLR direct output.

Output modules can come back into groups & matrices on the "direct inject" but you have no small fader for them (I'd automate my playback in PT) or use a channel with either the mic in & pad (fine for line level) or some in via the insert point. Does that help?

Jim

[Strutchopper]

I don't know the configuration yet. The seller is on tour at the moment. All I know is that it's got two frames and a total of 64 input channels. I guess that includes the sub groups, but I don't know for sure. I can choose to only buy the frame that includes the master and subgroups or to buy both frames. He told me that he uses PT connected to the "Direct inject with level pots to sub group and matrix mix". There are only 16 sub group channels. I would like to use 24 channels since I have an HD24. Maybe I need to invest in a PT or Nuendo system to make it work properly?

[Jim vanBergen]

Originally Posted by Strutchopper

There are only 16 sub group channels. I would like to use 24 channels since I have an HD24. Maybe I need to invest in a PT or Nuendo system to make it work properly?

There are only 16 groups, that's true, plus 12 auxes. But with 64 inputs you can route another 8 tracks into input modules if you're mixing 24 tracks AND 56 inputs or other tracks for mixdown.

What playback media are you planning on using, a 24 track analog tape deck or similar?

Jim

[Strutchopper]

At the moment I'm using an HD24, digital harddisk recorder, but I might get a 24-track analog tape deck in the future. I like tape compression. :-)

Patrik

[StefanM]

Hi Patrick,

I have been mixing several first-class musicals on those desks (and servicing them ;-) )
If you have any detailed questions drop me a line...

Some things:
Yes they do need maintenance. They have heat issues. Caps on the mic-pre boards tend to fail. Routing & aux-switches go south. Fader modules loose calibration, bus contacts need tlc...and you do not want to switch it off - ever. Which of course makes you a gold customer with your electricity supplier. Avoid the dual input modules (even more heat probs.) Be sure to have frames with cooling fans installed...retrofit is possible but not cheap.

BTW we use an F-Type in our recording studio - I said recording NOT mixing. Pre-amps & EQs are superb. Routing is not for studio...

Did I mention they sound awesome?

Cheers Stefan

[Strutchopper]

Hi Stefan!

Thanks for letting me know about the maintenance issues! What will happen if I switch if off after it's been used? I know some people leave all their equipment on, while others switch it of. Is this console more sensitive than others?

The maintenance might be a problem for me. I really doubt there is a good tech in my area.

Patrik

[Jim vanBergen]

As a rule, F-types have significantly more problems than J-types. PERIOD.

J-type is an a complete different league than F... yes, it still needs TLC. I turn mine off every night, have small problems from time to time, nothing catastrophic.

Contact Cadac and see if there is a good tech in your area, but know that most good console techs can figure them out. Cadac is excellent about providing good service, and the reason the extender module exists is so that any module can be repaired and tweaked competely.

jim

[StefanM]

I was talking about J-Type maintenance not F-Type. (btw I do not find our F-Type to have more problems as long as we are talking mono-inputs not duals, but this is true for F & J...)

AFAIK the westend guys do power down every night and they seem to get away with it...I for myself found that on power up psu or channel failures occur frequently. So it always was our policy to leave the desks switched on 24/7 in all German musical productions.

Cheers Stefan

[Jim vanBergen]

Well Stefan, it's always good to learn from someone else's experience. I have found I much prefer the J-type, as the F design is so much more compact, I found significantly more problems with their modules than any J I have worked on. I don't find maintaining a J to be hard at all, I keep a few spare modules aroundm the small parts kit, and the extender and it's easy to keep things working well. A handful of Vishay pots, and every three years I go thru and replace whichever ones sound dirty and don't clean up when exercised for a few seconds.

Strut, remember that unlike Neve, Trident, or SSL a Cadac is DESIGNED to be hot-swappable, so if you find you are having a problem during tracking or mix, you can pull the XLR from the input, unscrew the cap threads and pull the module, replace it with a spare, copy the settings, re-connect your XLR, and you're back in business. You can come back to the module the next day or have a maintenance engineer look at it when they have time.

I agree that more components fail upon power cycling, that is a pure fact in this world, but when a button or LED fails it's usually after the desk has been too hot for too long.

Most Cadacs I have worked with have fans installed, as well as a fan speed controller on the bottom corner of the frame. They are a little noisy on full, but you CAN choose to leave the desk on with the fans blowing instead of shutting down, especially if your studio is really active.

Hope this helps, and Stefan, its good to meet another Cadac fan!

Jim

[StefanM]

I second Jim on the fact that J-Types are not _hard_ to work on as the design is pretty straight-forward. And definetely hot-swap is a plus!
(Man, I remember swapping a CCM and remapping a 120 faders desk during the 20min intermission of a show...the "old" CCM had lost the "Next" button for the scene automation which resulted in either no next cue or skipping several cues with one push of the button!)
J-Types rule!

Stefan

[Strutchopper]

My studio will not be very active. At least not for a couple of years. I will mostly use it on weekends, so maybe it's cheaper to burn some components at power up, than leaving it on 24/7. I will probably not use all channels, so I will be able to change if one or two fails.

Do you know how much a console like this usually sell at? ..... and a module, if needed?

Patrik

[Jim vanBergen]

Originally Posted by StefanM

I second Jim on the fact that J-Types are not _hard_ to work on as the design is pretty straight-forward. And definetely hot-swap is a plus!
(Man, I remember swapping a CCM and remapping a 120 faders desk during the 20min intermission of a show...the "old" CCM had lost the "Next" button for the scene automation which resulted in either no next cue or skipping several cues with one push of the button!)
J-Types rule!

Stefan

I kept a couple of spare PREVIOUS & NEXT buttons in my spare parts kit because of this same problem, and always had the keyboard on a extendable arm to hit cues this way as well. Much easier than swapping & mapping the CCM...

As far as price, I only know street pricing for NEW, no clue about used but I'd estimate it's a great deal in the $25-50k (USD) range. of course, for that you can buy a LOT of console.

Jim

[Strutchopper]

Seems like I'm getting a real bargain then. He's asking $15.500

[Jim vanBergen]

Wonder why so cheap? Hmm, great deal..., I'd buy it only after you make sure it is in decent working condition. Go evercise pots, play with faders, run a condenser mic thru every input channel. Kick the tires, as it were.

Ask them who they are going to hire to de-commission the desk, take them aside, ask them the real status on the equipment, ask about having it installed & re-commissioned in your studio. Estimate costs, etc. get a better idea of what spare parts come with the desk.

Hope this helps!

[Strutchopper]

I'm a bit suspicious myself, but according to the seller it's in almost perfect condition. Yeah, I'd better go check it out.

[Strutchopper]

Originally Posted by StefanM

BTW we use an F-Type in our recording studio - I said recording NOT mixing. Pre-amps & EQs are superb. Routing is not for studio...

Are there more "problems" than no "tape in connectors" on the console, at mixing?

Patrik

[Jim vanBergen]

They are heavy. The PSU's are heavy.

But they sound GREAT.

[Strutchopper]

Originally Posted by Jim vanBergen

They are heavy. The PSU's are heavy.

But they sound GREAT.

I don't plan to move it around

[Jim vanBergen]

Originally Posted by Strutchopper

I don't plan to move it around

That's good. But bring several friends when you need to install it, and get a good night's rest!