Some advice for a newbie to 'location recording'

[jgrif08]

I just moved to a mountain town. I've been to a number of bars around and I have noticed a trend. Every bar I go to has live music, and I haven't seen a single band or musician selling CD's at their shows. This has lead to believe that there would be a viable market for recording services up here as a means of bringing in a little extra income for me.

So here's what it boils down to. I'm not necesarily talking about recording their shows but more so going to the shows and offering my services to help them record a demo and/or some sort of EP that they can sell at their shows. I don't really have a great recording space at my condo so I would need to invest in a portable setup. Ideally I would like to invest in a new laptop and some sort of portable interface for it.

Currently I own a G5 and a Fireface 800. I'd like to keep it MAC. So lets say $2500 for a new laptop. I would need an interface that is rugged enough to transport around, I would like around 8 mic ins with some decent pre amps. I'm ok on mics and cables for now. I'd like my total investment to be $6000 or less.

Any advice? and I mean any advice! I'm totally new to the location recording world so let me know of any pitfalls to look out for, business, technical, or otherwise.

Thanks in advance.
J

[henryrobinett]

Well I think the clear suggestion is Metric Halo 2882+dsp (or without dsp).

http://www.mhlabs.com/metric_halo/products/mio/

Great pre-amps. But get a little noisey when pushed too hard. With loud sources they sound great. I use some outboard pres when needed. Also their ULN-2, only two mic pres but phenomenal pres. I'd put them up against, and do, my Millennias, side by side.

For mobile recording using a Mac, this is the route to take, as far as I'm concerned. I have both.

[jgrif08]

Looks like they added aggregate device support. So I could also wire it up to my G5 at home along with my fireface and double my current number of mic ins at home

Is adding the dsp worth it in your opinion? what is MIOstrip? are the MIOcomp and MIOeq's any good?

I'm wondering if that extra $700 would be better spent on a single or dual channel mic pre such as the RNP... currently I don't own any outboard mic pres, just been using the built in pres on the FF800.

Here's another somewhat related question. I should be able to install and use Logic on both computers right? So long as the dongle is in the computer I wish to use it on I'm assuming...

[henryrobinett]

I think the MIOStrip and other MHLabs plugs are amoung the best that are out there. For the time being though, you have to use them as though they are outboard plugins. They don't operate inside your DAW yet. They've promised that this is in the offing. That said, for some it's a little bit of a workaround that is a PITA. I think it's great and have adopted my workflow to accomodate them. If I were working exclusively on a Powerbook, I wouldn't question to avail myself of these.

MIOStrip is a phenomenal channel strip. If you're familiar with MHLabs CS, this is a very supped up version. Great compressor and EQ. Great sound. Better than their CS, and CS is my basic staple.

The drawback to the DSP is you can only use 8 channels worth at a time. Which of course saves your Macs cpu resources. Then if you record the tracks you can use more.

So to answer your question it depends on how you want to work and how you are going to be able to adapt.

But no doubt about it these are great plugins.

[jgrif08]

If I were to save my money and buy it without DSP would I be able to upgrade later down the road?

[henryrobinett]

Maybe. I've never done it. My suggestion is you contact them yourself. They're a great bunch of guys. Tell them I sent you.

[Jimbo]

Originally Posted by jgrif08

If I were to save my money and buy it without DSP would I be able to upgrade later down the road?

Yes, the upgrade is about $850 or so. The MH guys can give you an exact dollar amount.

Everything Henry told you is true, BTW.

You'll probably need an outboard preamp for vocal work.

- Jim

[Larry Elliott]

Another supporter for this method!

[jgrif08]

So it sounds like the $700 or so that I would potentially save by not getting the DSP right away should go towards a preamp.

Any suggestions?

I've had my eye on an FMR RNP for quite some time and I've heard great things about it, especially considering the price tag

[bap]

Are you a ski bum? 'The Vail Valley' is hardly recognizable as the place where my daughter was born 11 years ago. Fun place!

Many of the better bands are from other places and merely gig on the resort circuit.

[jgrif08]

Originally Posted by bap

Are you a ski bum? 'The Vail Valley' is hardly recognizable as the place where my daughter was born 11 years ago. Fun place!

Many of the better bands are from other places and merely gig on the resort circuit.

My thoughts exactly. The music scene up here seems ripe for the picking. And yes, I am a ski bum of sorts (snowboard if you wanna be technical about it )
I work for a Swank Audio Visuals and we just aquired a resort up here. So I'm on of the in house AV guys. Makin' decent change (especially when you consider the amount of sitting on my ass killing time on the internet that I do), but I'd really like to start bringing in some extra income. I'd also like a reason to spend more time working with music.

About the Vail Valley though, I hear that from a lot of people about this place. Its grown a ton I guess. I just moved up here about a month ago. Between the snowboarding and the amazing fly fishing I should have plenty to keep me busy

[jockrocks]

Just spoke to MHlabs in the last week and it's bang on $850 for the DSP upgrade- I just bought a ULN2 without DSP and I'm considering it also.....
Sounds like you have a pretty sweet life to look forward to up there man, nothing like a bit of music and wilderness for the soul.....

[jgrif08]

Originally Posted by jockrocks

Sounds like you have a pretty sweet life to look forward to up there man, nothing like a bit of music and wilderness for the soul.....

Never been happier in my 25 years of existence

Had a 12" powder day on Wednesday. Heaven on earth

[snappydad]

Originally Posted by jgrif08

So it sounds like the $700 or so that I would potentially save by not getting the DSP right away should go towards a preamp.

Any suggestions?

I've got a suggestion. You can get a used ULN2 without DSP for between $700-$800 if you keep your eyes open. These pres do sound great plus you get a completely flexible ADDA unit that can integrate into your 2882 setup easily. Hard to find a pair of better sounding preamps alone for the $$, I think. Good luck.

jeffP

[Jimbo]

Originally Posted by jgrif08

So it sounds like the $700 or so that I would potentially save by not getting the DSP right away should go towards a preamp.

Any suggestions?

Boy, that's a heck of a question around here

Assuming your primary use for the preamp is for vocals -- as I said, the 2882 doesn't have enough juice for this task -- you'll probably want something with color.

The 2882 preamps are clean. A colored preamp will give you more sonic options overall as well.

It's hard to find transformer balanced preamps in the sub $700 range. I built a Hamptone HJFP2 for $600 which is a nice complement to the MIO preamps (I have both 2882 and ULN2).

From what I gather (never heard 'em) the RNP isn't in the colored camp.

- Jim

[ghellquist]

Keep the fireface 800. It is a really good unit. Add 8 channels of good mic pres and put them in rack case.

Gunnar

[jgrif08]

Originally Posted by ghellquist

Keep the fireface 800. It is a really good unit. Add 8 channels of good mic pres and put them in rack case.

Gunnar

ya know I was just thinkin of that when I woke up this morning.

Been looking at Gator cases. Any other recommendations for cases?

[big country]

how about a custom made rack? I build costom guitars , basses and have made
ribbon mics . but would love to build some one a custom rack. my avatar
is one of my creations its a five channel getbox. if your intrested Ill send some
pics of my work.

[jgrif08]

I will keep that in mind my friend.

I won't be making any of the purchases I'm discussing untill after the holidays so maybe I'll check back with ya...

[edwinhurwitz]

A couple things:

First, don't get a Gator case. I've used them and have been disappointed. Plus, their customer services stinks. If you want that kind of case, get an SKB.

Next, consider getting an Alesis HD24XR instead of using a computer based system. It's more portable and less likely to complain about beer being spilled on it. Also get a Fireport and just bring the files into your G5 for mixing. For the price of the computer, you can get the HD24 and an 8 channel mic pre. For the price of the 2882 or ULN2, you can get 8 more pres. From what it sounds like, you would have enough budget to handle this. I started with a Presonus Digimax and then added a Grace Lunatec V3, an RME Octamic, Quadmic and an RNP. I just got an API 3124 for drums and am looking to add four more of something so I can retire the Digimax.

Next, get a splitter. Don't try to record from the existing house board. www.audiopile.net has a 24 channel split snake with 15' tails for around $250. I also scored a whole bunch of Sescom transformer isolated splits on ebay for way less than the cost of the Jensen transformers that are inside them. I am thinking of eventually putting the transformers inside the split snake, but I have had no issues with using the straight split in many of the Front Range of Colorado venues that I have recorded, so that's been on the back burner.


Next thing you'll get involved in is mics. It's nice to have a pair of condensers to capture the room. I got fed up using beat up crappy house mics, so I have started my own mic collection which can now cover a good size band. The house guy is always happy to use my mics, as well, so everyone is happy. Mic cables are also a good investment. I go to redco.com every now and then and buy 200' of Mogami and some connectors and build as needed. House mic cables can be truly abysmal.

Once you get going, you'll find all kinds of ways to reduce the profit margin until you really have control over the whole audio path.

Have fun!
Edwin
PS Maybe I'll see you up there! Vail venues aren't what they once where, but it's still a cool town. If you want to take the next step in mountain life, checked out Crested Butte or Telluride. Don't forget to visit Steamboat as well and in the summer, Statebridge Lodge near Walcott is a great venue. I recorded a bunch of Zilla's album Egg there.

[Brackish]

Originally Posted by edwinhurwitz

Next, get a splitter. Don't try to record from the existing house board.

Why do you advise this? Just wondering because I anticipate
being in the position of how to handle recording vocals
with PA present. What about you putting your own recording
mic up right next to the house mic?

[edwinhurwitz]

I don't really understand the grammar of your question, but it's best for the vocalist to work just one mic, plus you don't want too much clutter up there. If you are taking direct out of house consoles, there's no point in spending money on nice preamps, etc as the standard house consoles I've run into in Vail are pretty crappy for recording and they will pretty much define the quality of your recording. Of course, I've played at the Gerald Ford Amphitheater through some really nice gear, but that tends to be the exception rather than the rule.

Let me know if you have any other questions! If you make it to the front range, check in to see if I am doing any location gigs and you can check out my rig, if you like!
Edwin

[Brackish]

Originally Posted by edwinhurwitz

Let me know if you have any other questions! If you make it to the front range, check in to see if I am doing any location gigs and you can check out my rig, if you like!
Edwin

That's a mighty nice offer, Edwin. And thanks for the info so far.

I did have another question on this topic. It has to
do with using a splitter with the house on the vocalist.
In this circumstance, which pre is amplifying
the mic? The house'? The recordist's?
Both?
And you'd both be sending 48V phantom to the mic?

[edwinhurwitz]

The idea of a splitter is that the house and the recordist both get to use their own preamps. Only one sends phantom power to the mic, but that's assuming you are using a mic that needs phantom power. I have found that for the most part, dynamic mics are perfectly adequate for vocals in these circumstances. Sometimes it is tempting to use a nice large diaphragm condenser, but that can cause feedback problems for the house, depending on the monitor, mains setup. Also, it can be awkward for the performer and distracting for the audience to see a huge mic with a pop filter in front of the artist. Remember that a great performance adequately recorded beats an awkward performance perfectly captured! At least in my book.

I am recording at Chautauqua in Boulder on the 30th, so if you want to come check that out, let me know. This is going to be in a small room with a small PA, no drums, etc. It sounds like from your questions, this might be similar to what you have in mind.

I might have some larger shows coming up as well. If that's more along your lines, then that might be what you want to look at.

OK, back to soldering! :-)

Edwin

[Remoteness]

Originally Posted by edwinhurwitz
Next, get a splitter. Don't try to record from the existing house board.

I believe a splitter is best too...

Unless you're the one operating the desk, I agree with Edwin, "Don't try to record from the existing house board."

[Brackish]

Originally Posted by edwinhurwitz

Sometimes it is tempting to use a nice large diaphragm condenser, but that can cause feedback problems for the house, depending on the monitor, mains setup. Also, it can be awkward for the performer and distracting for the audience to see a huge mic with a pop filter in front of the artist. Remember that a great performance adequately recorded beats an awkward performance perfectly captured!

Edwin

Hey. Guess what. The idea had crossed my mind to use
an LDC here!

But this is what I like about being able to talk with the more
experienced guys: it helps to hone my craft.

[over-man]

Originally Posted by Remoteness

I believe a splitter is best too...

Unless you're the one operating the desk, I agree with Edwin, "Don't try to record from the existing house board."

I recently purchased a 24 ch snake splitter and an hd24 to replace the 2 firepods I had been using with a G4 Powerbook, and I couldn't be happier. We had too many problems with a computer in a live situation, even if it is a Mac. Actually, i bought another firepod for a total of 3, giving me 24 decent mic pres. My recordings are much better than they were when I ran out of house boards (Mackie, Behringer, Allen & Heath). No looking back.

In a related note, would anyone be willing to critique a live recording I've made on the new system? I've been doing this for about a year, all self-taught, and I'd really love some comments. I take constructive criticism well. Thanks guys!

[jgrif08]

Originally Posted by edwinhurwitz

I am recording at Chautauqua in Boulder on the 30th, so if you want to come check that out, let me know. This is going to be in a small room with a small PA, no drums, etc. It sounds like from your questions, this might be similar to what you have in mind.

Edwin

Hey Edwin,
Haven't checked this thread in a couple of days. Just wanted to thank you for all of the advice. Its much appreciated. I will def look into everything you have advised me of. I'll have to keep you posted about that gig on the 30th. it would be a lot of fun to come take a look at what I might be getting myself into. Thanks again man, Ill be in touch.
J