Live to Two Track Questions

[Baithak]

For location recording, I use the Royer SF-12s in either MS or XY config going directly to two tracks of the SD 744. And yes, as you write, the results are quite nice for such a minimalist setup (if it is a decent room).

On occassion I have had slightly better results using the Schoeps MK41/MS 8 in MS config especially if mono compatibility is an issue (the Royer MS is not really that pure because of differences in the pickup patters between the two sides). Plus if the space is really reverberant, I have a choice of down playing the S channel.

All else being equal, to my ears, 24bits sounds better (truer to source, less digital) than 16bits but in your case I would suggest that you wait for the new Korg 1-bit recorder because the Genex 9000 that I use back home sounds better than either 24b or 16b to my ears (but is not portable).

The Korg has analog i/o plus software to convert 1-bit to PCM for burning CDs on a computer.

Baithak
PS: The Grace is a really good preaamp/converter and except for the new Benchmark two box combo I don't think there are too many other location pre/conv combos that are vastly superior.

[Remoteness]

Baithak has made some very good points.

[wshaw]

From a bang-for-the-$ perspective, with used Masterlinks going on the Bay for a couple hundred, how much better would a 1-bit system be? (Actually, I'm not even sure what "1 bit" means, as opposed to 24 bit . . . )

Thanks for the help!!

[Baithak]

Originally Posted by wshaw

From a bang-for-the-$ perspective, with used Masterlinks going on the Bay for a couple hundred, how much better would a 1-bit system be? (Actually, I'm not even sure what "1 bit" means, as opposed to 24 bit . . . )

Thanks for the help!!

There were two threads recently that talked about the Korg 1 bit recorder. The threads also talk about 1-bit stuff.

Here's one:
new Korg portable DSD recorders..

Re. the Masterlink, it is an incredibly convenient machine but I find it more useful in the studio than on the road. It is however, aging tech coming to the end of a relatively long innings. I have changed the optical drive in mine once and the harddrive twice in five years. But it sounds decent and for a couple of hundred bucks it is surely a deal but don't expect much of a quality jump either. For my money, I would stick with the DAT till the Korg or something like it came around.

Baithak

[wshaw]

Thanks again, Baithak.

I read the thread about 1-bit and DSD. Very interesting. But it raises further questions. . .

--A 1-bit recorder would render the Lunatec's converters obsolete, right (they go up to 24 bit, 192k, but do not output DSD)?

--If I use the Masterlink solely as the hard drive repository for the 24 bit datastream emerging from the Lunatec, why would that not realize all of the potential quality jump from 16 to 24 bits, as your last post suggests?

--Is there another 2-track 24-bit recorder that would sound better than the Masterlink--again, assuming that it's taking the output from the Lunatec?

Again, thanks very, very much!

[Baithak]

If all you are after is the benefit of going from the sound of 16-24 bits of your Lunatec, AND you are able to get a Masterlink for about 200 bucks this may be a great option.

HOWEVER, be aware that there is no easy way to get data off the Masterlink without playing it realtime or burrning a CD (NO USB or FW ports) and if your writer develops errors you are SOL.

There are probably 10 options for 24bit storage each with varying degress of compromise and features depending on the budget. A search here should identify all the usual suspects and their flaws/benefits.

Baithak

[Sinewave]

Is there another 2-track 24-bit recorder that would sound better than the Masterlink--again, assuming that it's taking the output from the Lunatec?

The Tascam DV-RA 1000.

[tnjazz]

OK, maybe I'm missing something here...

You're going out of the V3 into a DAT deck via SPDIF, so I assume you're using the dither on output to go down to 16 bit. Discussion of what recorder "sounds better" doesn't really apply in a digital transfer, does it?

The DSD, 1 bit, etc. stuff is all the wave of the future, but right now you're still only capturing 16 bit! Why not ditch the dat and pick up a 24 bit hard disk recorder and go that route first?

Maybe something like the SD722 or the Tascam HD-P2 or something? You'll have an easier time moving files off the machine as it's USB or firewire transfer, and recorded to flash drive or to a HDD.

IMO, the jump from your current 16 bit/44 or 48k environment to one of these options (24 bit, 96khz) is going to be pretty significant.

Maybe I'm way off base, but it seems like something like this makes more sense - at least in the short term. As someone who does a significant amount of location recording myself, this is the approach that I would take.

Dirk

[wshaw]

Dirk, I hear you.

I would think that all 24-bit recorders "sound" the same, if all they're doing is recording the output from an outboard converter. So the Masterlink should sound identical to the HD-P2. The difference lies in their features, not their "sound." Right?

Meanwhile, I gather everyone reading this thread agrees that the most significant improvement I could make on the Royer sf1-to-Lunatec-to DAT chain is to upgrade to a 24 bit recorder, right (as opposed to a different pre)?

THANKS!!!!!

[tnjazz]

yes, if you're going in digital there should be no difference. That's why I was puzzled about the discussion starting to move into the "which sounds better" area.

Baithak definitely does raise some excellent points about possibly waiting and making the BIG jump to the Tascam DSD or the Korg and bypassing 24bit altogether, but I think going from 16 to 24 alone will be a significant enough jump to bring a smile to your face - at least in the short term!

The Lunatec is not my favorite pre by far, but it's an excellent piece and it's not the most limiting factor in your chain at all. A move to a 24 bit recorder will really make the Royers and the V3 come alive. So I say yes, upgrade the recorder first.

Good luck!

[wshaw]

As a high-value-for-the-buck short term upgrade to 24 bit recording, what about that 24 bit DAT recorder, the Tascam DA-45HR? They're on Ebay REALLY REALLY cheap . . .

Anyone have any opinions on this piece?

[Plush]

Please don't buy any dat machines. Even in 24 bit guise, the machines are past their sell by date. Mechanically, they require too much maintenance and, at 24 bit, your running time is limited to 1 hour.

You have good mics and you need to capture them on a 24 bit machine.

We like the Tascam 1000 dvd recorder for a budget oriented set-up.
It will take your SPDIF input and running time is up to over 4 hours.

Source (the mics) and the playas are the most important
Then. . .capture the source in high fidelity.

Only later does one need a better mic amp and at that point, the DAV Electronics Broadhurst Gardens range of equipment is worth looking in to.

Of course the best sound is obtained when the noise that is being captured is a worthwhile noise, well performed.

[wshaw]

Plush--

Sure, DATs are long in the tooth. It''s true.

There seems to be a fondness here for the Tascam DVRA1000. It's an interesting piece indeed.

The DSD converters in the DVRA1000 would render the 24/192 converters in the Lunatec obsolete, would they not? Put another way, y'all feel that they capture sound better than the a/d circuits in the Lunatec, right?

[Plush]

No, your converters are perfectly useable with the Tascam 1000.

You could use the Tascam's converters OR the ones you currently use.

The point about the Tascam is that is a good "capture" machine.

You can also "load" the programs from the DVD+RW that the Tascam uses onto your computer.

[wshaw]

Hi Plush--

Yes, I realize that I COULD use the V3's converters with the Tascam DVRA1000. The question I have is whether I'd want to.

Anyone have an opinion on the V3's converters versus the DVRA1000's converters?

Thanks again!

[wshaw]

Hi again--

Any downside to using the M-Audio Microtrack? It records 24/96k via sdif, and it's small, portable, and relatively cheap. A 2 gig card would be enough for my purposes.

Opinions?

[tnjazz]

Not really any downside. All you need is a bit bucket and the Microtrack does a pretty good job of that.

You can do 24/96 via SPDIF, so for about $350 you'd be set for a while, until the DSD revolution REALLY hits.

[fifthcircle]

I use the Microtrack as a 2-track backup here... Feed it digitally and it is fine. Certainly one of the better things at that price range. Not to say it is without fault (it certainly has its issues), but it is a reliable little recorder.

Analog, though, it is not particularly good...

--Ben

[wshaw]

Well, I found, and have purchased, a Microtrack w/a 2 gig flashcard from a guy on the Bay. Very good feedback, I'll have it in time for a gig next week, and it cost quite a bit less than a new one w/ a 2 gig card would've (let alone a masterlink, and with no loss in fidelity). Plus, it's incredibly portable, and the files are swap-and-droppable.

Should make a GREAT "bit bucket" (love that phrase!) I'll post a review after next week's gig.

Thanks everyone for all your informative & helpful advice.

Happy Thanksgiving.

[tnjazz]

Congrats! You may also want to invest in an external battery for the MT - the internal can vary widely in running time.

Best option here is a USB battery (plugs into the USB port and takes a couple of AA alkalines) which will run the thing for about 8 hours. They're about $10 or so I think and pretty widely available...

[ShawnF]

Originally Posted by wshaw

Well, I found, and have purchased, a Microtrack w/a 2 gig flashcard from a guy on the Bay. Very good feedback, I'll have it in time for a gig next week, and it cost quite a bit less than a new one w/ a 2 gig card would've (let alone a masterlink, and with no loss in fidelity). Plus, it's incredibly portable, and the files are swap-and-droppable.

Should make a GREAT "bit bucket" (love that phrase!) I'll post a review after next week's gig.

Thanks everyone for all your informative & helpful advice.

Happy Thanksgiving.

I'd also strongly suggest that once you receive it, you make certain the firmware is recent and update it if need be (and 1.45 just came out two days ago, though 1.43 seems fine for me). The early versions had issues.

[MichaelPatrick]

I was going to suggest a TASCAM HD-P2 but it costs more and may give you nothing extra that you really need.

You had everything you needed except that the "bit bucket," as you call it, was limited to 48/16. Now you have it all. I'd avoid using the Microtrack converters unless you have to. The Grace V3's converters are surely better (I use one with a Sound Devices 744T recorder for portable work).