Tried MS for the 1st time - WOW

[Recording David]

So I had a gig recording music for 2 lutes yesterday and tried out my new MS rig (Schoeps MK5/MK8, DAV BG2, Peter Engh MS decoder, Mytek 8x96 AD) and I was absolutely gobsmacked.

I've been using Schoeps for ages so I knew the quality would be great but the stereo imaging is insanely accurate - I could close my eyes and 'see' exactly where the players were with the cans.

Don't know whether it's me but you don't seem to hear much about MS in classical recording any more (I know it's an old fashioned technique). If you haven't tried it out I can't recommend it enough. When the project is finished I'll post samples for you.

[Allesmachine]

I had an on-location job to record several recorder students (must be a big weekend for early music, TWO recording sessions! ). I really wanted to try out MS but couldn't get my hands on a decoder or a good enough small mixer to make it worth-while. Definetly good to hear that it works though

[profaders]

Originally Posted by Recording David

Don't know whether it's me but you don't seem to hear much about MS in classical recording any more (I know it's an old fashioned technique). If you haven't tried it out I can't recommend it enough. When the project is finished I'll post samples for you.

Never like to hear about "old techniques" as if "new techniques" might be... well... progressed to something better.

Crossed pair of figure-of-eight (same thing). It's that out-of-phase component that gives you that spacial quality - yes, especially in a pair of cans. The great thing about MS is its flexibility in positioning and ease in which to code to XY.

If any out there still have a pair of Coles STC 4038s ribbons try a crossed pair (bit awkward but nice) for classical strings such as a string quartet - should knock your socks off.

[Yannick]

MS has been our go-to-first technique for 15 years now. This includes Blumlein, but with M=eight, Side is eight at equal levels.

I agree it is fantastic. It gives me much more impression of the original space, on the contrary to the argument that it does not sound as spacious as eg AB.

[Jimbo]

Originally Posted by Yannick

This includes Blumlein, but with M=eight, Side is eight at equal levels.

[Jimbo]

Originally Posted by Recording David

So I had a gig recording music for 2 lutes yesterday and tried out my new MS rig (Schoeps MK5/MK8, DAV BG2, Peter Engh MS decoder, Mytek 8x96 AD) and I was absolutely gobsmacked.

Did you use an omni or cardiod capsule for the mid?

[jakromm]

Originally Posted by Jimbo

He is saying that the middle mic is a figure 8 mic, the result is a figure 8 in the shape of a + or X depending how you point it (X is blumlein technique)

[Jimbo]

Originally Posted by jakromm

He is saying that the middle mic is a figure 8 mic, the result is a figure 8 in the shape of a + or X depending how you point it (X is blumlein technique)

Got it. Thanks.

- Jim

[Recording David]

Originally Posted by Jimbo

Did you use an omni or cardiod capsule for the mid?

I used a cardioid capsule. I didn't know omni was an option for this technique - the fig. 8 mic picked up a lot of the room, would an omni make the sound too unfocused in a very live room?

[matucha]

Well I tried MS for some fooley/fx type of recording recently and I was very pleasantly surprised, because what I've expected was big compromise spatialy, but it worked very nicely and it is marvelous how little it changes when converted into mono. I did expect good mono compatibility, but I've expected at least different coloration or so.

I didn't use anything "by the book" only what I had M - sennheiser mkh405 (cardiod), S - Gefell UM57 (eight). It wasn't any scientific, so there can be some anomalies brought in by asymetry of UM57 eight polar pattern, but I didn't hear anything that would bother me.

[Jimbo]

Originally Posted by Recording David

I used a cardioid capsule. I didn't know omni was an option for this technique - the fig. 8 mic picked up a lot of the room, would an omni make the sound too unfocused in a very live room?

A week ago I used M/S on a studio grand (there's a thread about it here somewhere :), and I used an omni as mid. It sounded great, but a piano is a completely different story than two lute players.

I don't know how an omni Mid would sound in your situation...I was just curious.

- Jim

[jakromm]

I have wanted to give MS a shot, but my mic selection is only a pair of oktava 319 and a pair of oktava 012 (cardioid and omni for 012) How would using the 3 cardioids yield? Using 2 cardioids in opposite directions to act as a figure 8, a very butchered figure 8

I think the cardioid dosn't have enough spread to fill the image like the figure 8 does. So using an omni in the center would probably be best???

Edit: Forgot a 9 foot grand center stage of a small stone hall, I could see reflections from side walls being a problem?

[studio freak]

If You don´t have a figure 8 mic you can go with 3 cardioid mics, But you have to invert the phase on the right cardioid mic. this will give you a perfect figure 8 pattern.

( all the possible patterns are achieved with cardiod combinations, omni is two cardioids in phase, figure eight is two cardioids one of them with inverse polarity)

But, to achieve an effective figure 8 with cardioids they must be iddentical mics, if possible matched pair. dont forget you phase shift one of them, if the freq. responses aren´t very close between the two, the anti-phase relation will be defective.

you also dont need the MS matrix, you can do your own in the mixer or in the software. if you are using any kind of DAW the process is very simple, create one track for the mid mic, a second and a third track for the figure 8, pan track 2 full left and track 3 full right, phase shift on track 3. link the faders 2 and 3.

Now you can balance the levels between mid and side, if you want more "ambient" just rise the "side mic" faders, but be carefull, there´s a sweet spot between mid and side, put to much side and you might experience phase anomalies, and if you cut to much on the "mid" track you can null the "side" by phase.

the advantage in doing your own matrix is that you have control on the balance of the stereo image.


about the omni pattern for mid.... well, the MS configuration makes use of the cardioide pattern for mid, not omni pattern. you can use a omni for the side, but this is more tricky because you have to invert the phase in one of the capsules and you then you have to invert it again on the matrix as i told before.

Hope this helps.

cheers

[studio freak]

Originally Posted by jakromm

...Using 2 cardioids in opposite directions to act as a figure 8, a very butchered figure 8

I think the cardioid dosn't have enough spread to fill the image like the figure 8 does. So using an omni in the center would probably be best???

As I said, a figure 8 pattern is just 2 cardioid capsules with oposite phases.
there´s no voodoo here. just dont forget to change the phase on the cardioide on the right side

[Jimbo]

Originally Posted by studio freak

about the omni pattern for mid.... well, the MS configuration makes use of the cardioide pattern for mid, not omni pattern.

not necessarily: http://www.sweetwater.com/expert-cen.../d--03/09/2006

<< sorry for the sweetwater reference, but it was the first google hit, and I'm feeling lucky! >>

...and having just used an omni as mid, I can attest that it most definitely works on piano.

- Jim

[roonsbane]

Studio freak said:

about the omni pattern for mid.... well, the MS configuration makes use of the cardioide pattern for mid, not omni pattern.

In fact Mr. Bluemlein invented the technique first using two figure of eight capsules. In any stereo recording book look under M/S. Without fail they will all say that M/S can use any pattern mic as the mid. Omni works very well. MK2H/MK6 Rocks! I much prefer it if the room sounds good enough though favoring the mid wont dry up the recording the way a cardioid would.

Have fun!

Cameron

[matucha]

interesting

[Yannick]

Interesting to note is the distribution of uncorrelated room info you end up with between (outside ?) the loudspeakers - in relation to the Mid microphone used.

Omni: none if S is the same level as M or lower

Cardioid: the rear pickup is always ONLY uncorrelated room info, unless S is switched off ! This can be used to your advantage in some rooms with eg. a bad back wall reflection, or in rooms where the back does not contribute much to the overall reverb (I know this sounds contradictory, but that is my experience).

figure of eight: the side pickup has uncorrelated room info, which can blurr the sound in too narrow rooms, rooms which have badly reflective side walls. Please remember, for this setup, floors and ceilings are side walls too !

Interestingly, for omni and figure of eight, you have symmetrical pickup, front-to-back. That means, the back of the stereo setup records the room with the same recording angle as the front (in the fig-o-8 case it will be with opposite polarity). Typically you will place the omni closer to the source, or with musicians around it (but NOT to the sides if S is louder than M, as the sides will be incoherent !). The 8 will be further from the source, and in short rooms there will be back wall problems (as the reflections will end up correlated, but opposite polarity, and disturb the direct pickup).

A wide angle cardioid as mid gives a nice blend between omni and cardioid, with some out of phase room info, but with conservative S levels.

Another interesting thing is that the angular distortion (relation between the real angles between sound sources and reproduced angles on the loudspeakers) is also dependant of the mid mic. With an omni (Mlevel=Slevel) you'll get a bit of the sides-of-the-orchestra are compressed into the L and R loudspeakers thing, as a big AB setup. With a fig8 it will be quite linear.

All this info comes from a Sennheiser paper I cannot seem to find online anymore.

[studio freak]

Jimbo

I didn´t mean that you could not use an omni for mid, I was trying to say that the standard MS configuration is achieved with the mid mic as cardioid.



"A mid-side setup consists of two microphones &mdash one capable of producing a figure-8 polar pattern (the side mic), and one that has a cardioid pattern (the mid mic). You may also use another figure-8 or an omnidirectional "


this text comes from the sweetwater link you posted.

it says "you may also use..."
but also says that you can use a figure 8 mic for mid....!?? that is another thing: Blumlein not MS.

cheers

[softwareguy]

Actually, Blumlein would be when your two figure 8 microphones are in an X-Y relationship to the source, not a M-S relationship. In other words, your M-S mic array is turned 45 degrees on its axis.

[studio freak]

Originally Posted by softwareguy

Actually, Blumlein would be when your two figure 8 microphones are in an X-Y relationship to the source, not a M-S relationship. In other words, your M-S mic array is turned 45 degrees on its axis.

thats correct, and I mentioned Blumlein as another coincident stereo technique apart from MS, that was my point.

[softwareguy]

but also says that you can use a figure 8 mic for mid....!?? that is another thing: Blumlein not MS.

Right, I think that we're probably saying the same thing, I'm just clarifying that you can still use a figure 8 mic for the mid, and that doesn't make it Blumlein, it's still just MS with a different M mic. Blumlein would be the same mic array turned 45 degrees off of center. Both are valid techniques.

[roonsbane]

Software guy is correct!

I did not say that the Bluemlein technique is M/S. I said that Mr. Bluemlein (Alan Bluemlein) invented this technique (M/S), as well as the Bluemlein technique, using two figure of eight microphones. The technique can use any pattern as the mid. It say's nothing about being specifically a cardioid. The reason why cardioids are mostly used are its ablility to dry up the sound source (pulling it closer) as you use less side. This gives great flexibility in an unknown room. With an omni, you really have to know exactly where it should go.

If things ease up I could try and put up some files from last nights concert using this omni M/S configuration. The imaging is incredible! and yet it still sounds lush like A/B.

Cameron

[max cooper]

Originally Posted by roonsbane

Without fail they will all say that M/S can use any pattern mic as the mid.

I mentioned this elsewhere, but I'll repeat it here.

I use a Gibson guitar that has a pickup at the neck, kinda like Lennon's guitar.

I like to send the pickup to an amplifier. I've used the signal from the amp as the "M" and had a fig. 8 up near the guitar.

It does create a stereo image.

I've also taken a D.I. as the "M".

Originally Posted by studio freak

As I said, a figure 8 pattern is just 2 cardioid capsules with oposite phases.

Not at all true! A real figure 8 mic has absolutely no pickup on ther null sides, none. That's how the Beatles overdubbed with a speaker on the null before headphones came into use at EMI.

Back to back cardioids will pick up a lot more on the nulls, not giving a good or true MS sound. Plus the twp cardioids' diapragms will be much farther apart than the single capsule of the Figure 8.
<L>

[studio freak]

Originally Posted by Lou Judson

Not at all true! A real figure 8 mic has absolutely no pickup on ther null sides, none. That's how the Beatles overdubbed with a speaker on the null before headphones came into use at EMI.

Back to back cardioids will pick up a lot more on the nulls, not giving a good or true MS sound. Plus the twp cardioids' diapragms will be much farther apart than the single capsule of the Figure 8.
<L>

The null zone on the figure 8 pattern is achieved by the summing zone were the two cardioid patterns overlaps, since they are in oposite phase they null each other in that same area creating the figure8 null zone. this is who it works in theory.

but as you say, the position between the two cardioid capsules and their similarity in freq. response is the key. they have to null completely and in the right spot.

[pkautzsch]

Originally Posted by Lou Judson

Back to back cardioids will pick up a lot more on the nulls, not giving a good or true MS sound. Plus the twp cardioids' diapragms will be much farther apart than the single capsule of the Figure 8.
<L>

Sorry to correct you here:
As both capsules pick up exactly the same sound at 90° as long as they are the same brand and type, all sound coming from 90° will cancel out COMPLETELY when one of the mics is phase-inverted. Nearly all variable pattern LDCs have two cardioid capsules mounted back to back. They all give clean fig-8 patterns, and even their omni pattern becomes fig-8-ish in the treble range (in contrast to single-diaphragm pressure transducers).
But, you're right in saying that two cardioid mics can never be in the EXACTLY same position. So for high frequencies the resulting pattern may slightly differ from the ideal.
Theoretically the best fig-8 is one diaphragm which the sound can access from both sides equally. Schoeps MK8 is an example of this.

[studio freak]

Originally Posted by max cooper

I mentioned this elsewhere, but I'll repeat it here.

I use a Gibson guitar that has a pickup at the neck, kinda like Lennon's guitar.

I like to send the pickup to an amplifier. I've used the signal from the amp as the "M" and had a fig. 8 up near the guitar.

It does create a stereo image.

I've also taken a D.I. as the "M".

Have to try this one myself, cool concept