'verb on the overheads for jazz

[henryrobinett]

Not so much a remote question, but a jazz one. How often do you jazz guys put reverb on the overheads? I almost never do. But I'm doing a jazz CD and they just need to be back some with a bit ambience, while still hot. I'm wondering if I've missed this the whole time? I'm noticing just a splash a lot in my listening and I didnt before.

I guess in avoiding low end build up and not liking the sound of too much eqing the low end out of reverbs too much, I think I neglected this. Or not?

[henryrobinett]

Never too much info. Thanks. You know, it's funny, you get in the habit of doing things, then you suddenly see it differently and they way I hear it has changed. Even the way I hear it on recordings. Stupdi being fixed about somethings.

Thanks!

[MattJazz]

yes, I can totally relate.
You know I am going to keep bugging you about the Metric Halo's.
Can you see Metric Halo inputs in cue mix? ( through firewire? )
I know that you can not through Metric's software.
Matt

[MattJazz]

Henry,
I am huge Blue Note fan and have toooo many c.d.s
All the drum tracks from Rudy VanGelder have reverb.(maybe applied to whole mix, not sure) does anybody here know for sure???? Ok now I am curious.

Matt

[ajfarber]

Originally Posted by MattJazz

Henry,
I am huge Blue Note fan and have toooo many c.d.s
All the drum tracks from Rudy VanGelder have reverb.(maybe applied to whole mix, not sure) does anybody here know for sure???? Ok now I am curious.

I've been over this a few times in other posts.

Here's a brief recap.

RVG, in his stereo recordings of the 1960s for Prestige, Verve, Blue Note and Impulse, used 2 mics on the drums. Both were Schoeps 221b. 1 mic to capture the entire set placed in front at about cymbal height and aimed at the snare. And 1 aimed at the snare and high-hat. No bassdrum mic.

Rudy would pan the drums hard right. The assumption here is that his desk had no pan pots, only switches. Channel A, channel B or A&B. The drums would be in the right channel DRY, with reverb returning to the left channel. Piano & bass up the middle dry and a horn or 2 on the left w/ reverb returning to the right.

I'm happy to answer any questions regarding RVG, Columbia 30st or Fine Sound. PM me for further ramblings.

[Remoteness]

I offen use a dash of verb on the O/Hs. Usually a short decay and no pre-delay.

Depending on the room tone I've been known to stick with only the room mics dry.

[henryrobinett]

Thanks guys. I was hoping to hear from both of you. I've been recording/mixing so much remote recording, where I never put verb on OHs. Too much room coming from other sources anyway. I tend to raise the room mics to taste which gives me enough. But my attention wasn't on reverb for OHs. I'm doing this in studio jazz CD now where the OHs are just 'ding", in your face no matter how far back I push them, level wise. And of course I'm more judicious with reverb on everything else than Mr. Remote (I'm trying to learn your lessons!), so they just hang on your nose.

Thanks. It's very helpful.

[leddy]

Originally Posted by ajfarber

Rudy would pan the drums hard right. The assumption here is that his desk had no pan pots, only switches. Channel A, channel B or A&B. The drums would be in the right channel DRY, with reverb returning to the left channel. Piano & bass up the middle dry and a horn or 2 on the left w/ reverb returning to the right.

After reading this, I tried mixing it this way with some recordings of my jazz group. That was very cool. I always assumed in RVG's stuff that the reverb in the opposite channel was actually bleed. Using reverb that way gives you a lot of flexibility in the mix. It also makes mono tracks sound much bigger and more spacious. Depending on the reverb, the tracks don't really have to sound sound hard-panned - even in headphones. I guess that's why I always thought it was just bleed.

Do you know what kind of reverb it was? Probably a nice plate?

Very cool, thanks.

[resound]

How about that Paul Motian drum sound? Any reverb on those overheads?

[ajfarber]

Originally Posted by VukOnCrack

How about that Paul Motian drum sound? Any reverb on those overheads?

If you mean 60s Paul Motion with Bill Evans, the Riverside dates were done at Reeves sound studios with Jack Higgins at the controls. I'll have to go back and review those records and also "Waltz For Debbie" which was recorded on location at the Village Vanguard.

Otherwise, all RVG dates from 1959-1970 were done as described in my earlier post.

BTW, the pre-1959 RVG stuff recorded in his parents living-room in Hackensack NJ, sounds great. Most of those are mono, but a few were stereo.

[resound]

Originally Posted by ajfarber

If you mean 60s Paul Motion with Bill Evans, the Riverside dates were done at Reeves sound studios with Jack Higgins at the controls. I'll have to go back and review those records and also "Waltz For Debbie" which was recorded on location at the Village Vanguard.

Otherwise, all RVG dates from 1959-1970 were done as described in my earlier post.

BTW, the pre-1959 RVG stuff recorded in his parents living-room in Hackensack NJ, sounds great. Most of those are mono, but a few were stereo.

I actually was thinking of the more recent ECM stuff, like Garden of Eden.

[klaukholm]

Originally Posted by MattJazz

For more recent, I know John Clayton well and he did Diana Krall's latest c.d.
Check out the beautiful sound of the drums in that mix!!!!!! John is a perfectionist and I know he personally over sees what is done in mixing.
The best modern jazz recording I have heard in a while.
Bass especially!!!
Matt

John is great,
he has gone back to the tradition of not relying on amplification to achieve the right sound and he has great command of his instrument both in the classical and jazz realms. Wonderful person as well - no ego whatsoever - just don't let him catch you with a Realbook.

[ajfarber]

Originally Posted by VukOnCrack

I actually was thinking of the more recent ECM stuff, like Garden of Eden.

Oh, that's very different. Nevermind.

[fifthcircle]

Originally Posted by klaukholm

John is great,
he has gone back to the tradition of not relying on amplification to achieve the right sound and he has great command of his instrument both in the classical and jazz realms. Wonderful person as well - no ego whatsoever - just don't let him catch you with a Realbook.

John doesn't even have a pickup on his instrument... A great sounding axe, for sure... I believe he is actually playing Oscar Brown's old instrument if memory serves me right. He travels with an RE20 for whatever PA needs are required. The only time he plays without it are when something better is availabe (like when I've had a UM 57, U47 FET, etc...)

One of my favorite stories about his band is once I was mixing front of house at a festival gig. I was exhausted from a couple very long days of work. He said to just put out a couple mics for soloists, piano and him and not to worry about anything else. 15 min into the set of me thinking I was mixing very subtle sound reinforcement I looked down to realize a master VCA on the console was all the way down. Oops! they sounded pretty amazing without a bit of amplification.

Anyways, back on subject of the thread- I'll occasionally use a touch of verb on the drums (I don't usually use overheads, exactly) to tie the drum sound into the rest of the ensemble, but I don't use much.

--Ben

[henryrobinett]

Anyways, back on subject of the thread- I'll occasionally use a touch of verb on the drums (I don't usually use overheads, exactly) to tie the drum sound into the rest of the ensemble, but I don't use much.

Yes. I almost always use verb on the snare and a little less on toms, if I'm mic'ing them. But not often, until now, on overheads.

Ben, Do you mean you don't usually put reverb on overheads or you don't normally use overheads?

[klaukholm]

Are you sure you don't mean Ray Browns bass? They were very close.
John once told me about his days in the basie band. They had been getting pretty heavily into amplification by the time he joined and they kept asking him to turn it up. Ray reminded him of the glory days of the Basie band and how that huge sound you hear on those old recordings was unamplified bass.
So John started turning down the volume a scootch every time they asked for more bass. Eventually he played with the amp all the way down. The orchestra slowly played softer in order to hear more bass not knowing he was turning it sown. The end result was a return to the more classic sound of the bigband. They actually played fairly quietly back then.


Apologize for the hijack
back to reverb

[taturana]

i guess if you have a very good room sound there's no need for verb... if you don't then it could be very useful...

[fifthcircle]

Yes- I meant Ray Brown... Ugh... Just listen to what I mean- not what I say. Gotta cut down on the long days.

--Ben

[fifthcircle]

Originally Posted by henryrobinett

Ben, Do you mean you don't usually put reverb on overheads or you don't normally use overheads?

I don't usually use overheads. 90% of the time, when I mic a drumset, I put a stereo mic out in front of the kit and let the drummer do the rest. Put the mic in the right place and you don't even need any extra mics. Works great for acoustic stuff- jazz, bluegrass, etc...

This is an SF-24 in front of the kit for a jazz concert.

--Ben

[henryrobinett]

That's beautiful. But you know, I can't get over not having the extra wee bit of control with a 421s or the like on the toms. Sometimes I don't use them, but I almost always do. But that's a nice set up. Easy too!

[fifthcircle]

Put a pair in front of the kit 18" or so and mics on toms are about the last thing you'd want. I will say that I occasionally put a spot on the kick drum as I like the touch up. In the sound samples on my website, all the jazz examples were recorded this way. (Ex 3 used a VP88, Ex 5 was an AKG C34, Ex 7 was a SM 69 Tube, Ex 8 an AKG 426)

I find that sometimes a M-S pair works really well. Putting a hyper or fig-8 in the center and you can focus the snare in the sound easily.

--Ben

[leddy]

Originally Posted by fifthcircle

I don't usually use overheads. 90% of the time, when I mic a drumset, I put a stereo mic out in front of the kit and let the drummer do the rest. Put the mic in the right place and you don't even need any extra mics. Works great for acoustic stuff- jazz, bluegrass, etc...

This is an SF-24 in front of the kit for a jazz concert.

--Ben

Have you used any other placements with a M/S pair?

I have been using one from behind the kit, kind of over the left shoulder of the drummer, pointed down at the snare and bass drum. I use the Beyer M160/M130 combo. I love it; the only thing I would change is that the floor tom gets a little distant compared to the whole kit, but not too much. It's Jazz, so that's all I'm using on the kit. I tried doing what you have in the picture, but I got too much ride and not enough snare.

If only I could replace the drummer's head with a mic stand...

[fifthcircle]

Originally Posted by leddy

Have you used any other placements with a M/S pair?

I have been using one from behind the kit, kind of over the left shoulder of the drummer, pointed down at the snare and bass drum. I use the Beyer M160/M130 combo. I love it; the only thing I would change is that the floor tom gets a little distant compared to the whole kit, but not too much. It's Jazz, so that's all I'm using on the kit. I tried doing what you have in the picture, but I got too much ride and not enough snare.

If only I could replace the drummer's head with a mic stand...

Sure- As a traditional overhead (single point), it can work well. Position right and you don't need a snare mic as the on-axis nature of the center can dig the snare out of the sound quite well. I prefer in front, but it isn't always possible.

If you are getting too much ride, you probably need to position the mic a bit lower and a bit further out. If you are in too close, you will get too much ride. It definitely is a mic technique where you need to be in a specific "sweet spot." It can sound pretty bad if you are in the wrong place.

--Ben

[ajfarber]

Here are some photos at Rudy's. I hope these links work.

http://www.ctijazz.com/photogallery/...taylortate.php

[Robobo1]

Originally Posted by fifthcircle

I don't usually use overheads. 90% of the time, when I mic a drumset, I put a stereo mic out in front of the kit and let the drummer do the rest. Put the mic in the right place and you don't even need any extra mics. Works great for acoustic stuff- jazz, bluegrass, etc...

This is an SF-24 in front of the kit for a jazz concert.

--Ben

What kind of mic clip you using there? Is that a roycote shotgun mount? I'm not happy with the AT clip that came with my SF-24.

[fifthcircle]

Originally Posted by Robobo1

What kind of mic clip you using there? Is that a roycote shotgun mount? I'm not happy with the AT clip that came with my SF-24.

That is the standard Royer mount. It has slots cut in it for both Blumlein and M-S work. It is a bit expensive, but a great shockmount. Much better than the AT one...

--Ben