Recording Brass Quintet

[fifthcircle]

I'm certainly in the camp that the main brass ensmble should be recorded without spots. As I mentioned before, you may or may not need a spot to clean up the percussion sound that will be present in this particular recording.

Oh and although he choses to keep this a secret for credibility reasons, Rich is actually a very accomplished trombone player (means that he knows when to make the violist's ears bleed and when not to....).

--Ben

[sonare]

Originally Posted by fifthcircle

Oh and although he choses to keep this a secret for credibility reasons, Rich is actually a very accomplished trombone player (means that he knows when to make the violist's ears bleed and when not to....).

PULEASE-- I am a "recovering BASS trombone player," which means I used to look at whole notes as potential solos....

And why stick to only violists? Bass trombone operators are equal pain enablers, and are usually flattered to make ANYONE'S ears bleed!

(my name is )Rich (and I am a recovering bass trombonist)

[Don S]

Originally Posted by sonare

(my name is )Rich (and I am a recovering bass trombonist)

Was it Symphonie Fantastique or Tchaik 4 that brought you to us today?

[hughesmr]

Originally Posted by Don S

Was it Symphonie Fantastique or Tchaik 4 that brought you to us today?

Or perhaps this?

[sonare]

Originally Posted by Don S

Was it Symphonie Fantastique or Tchaik 4 that brought you to us today?

Too many pops concerts and the typical management vs players stuff. The only time I miss it is when I hear "Ein Heldenleben." Strange, but true.

Rich

[classicalrecord]

q: how do you make a trombonist's car more aerodynamic??

a: take the domino's pizza sign off the top.

[Don S]

Q: what's the difference between a dead trombone player in the road and a dead snake in the road?
A: The snake was on his way to a gig.

Sorry Rich!

[RichS]

Q: what's the difference between a dead trombone player in the road and a dead snake in the road?
A: The snake was on his way to a gig.

A: The snake had skid marks in front of it.

[Jim vanBergen]

Q: define "pointless optimist"
A: a trombonist with a pager


Not as good as this-
Q: Define "perfect pitch"
A: you throw a viola into a dumpster and it hits a banjo AND an accordion!

Sorry ....could not resist!!!

[Dr Bob]

How can you tell which kid on the playground is the trombone player's kid?

Doesn't use the slide very well and can't swing AT ALL.

It's hard to resist these. . .

[mds]

hahahaha...I apologize if I lead this thread off track with my jab at my buddy Nick. I didn't intend it to become a compendium of trombone jokes...though I'm enjoying it!

Mike

[David Spearritt]

Q. How do you tell you're being kissed by a french horn player?
A. They've got their fist up your butt.

[dangoudie]

Ha, I'm enjoying the trombonist jibes but back to the matter at hand...

I've got a brass quintet session on Monday (called nothing other than Dizzie Brascal!) and I'm in need of some clues...

When most of you are suggesting micing patterns, are you assuming a front facing line, an arc or a circle of players?

Secondly, if you were recording in a very dead, studio space would you change your micing decisions such as placement or pick-up pattern?

[sonare]

Originally Posted by dangoudie

When most of you are suggesting micing patterns, are you assuming a front facing line, an arc or a circle of players?

Secondly, if you were recording in a very dead, studio space would you change your micing decisions such as placement or pick-up pattern?

First-- if I were in London (as it appears you are) I would not consider using a studio. The players will force (unless its Abbey Road, Aire, or Henry Woods) and it will sound indescribably BAD. Any church will work better.

Second, they should sit in a semi-circle rather than the "normal" sides facing one another with the tuba in the middle. A semi-circle is better, and they can hear one another. Experiment with a reflector behind the horn rather than a spot mic.

Finally, if you can escape the certain musical death in a studio try a Blumlein ribbon setup. Otherwise scroll back up and re-read M Bishop's setup for Empire Brass. Or ORTF even FURTHER back.

Rich

[dangoudie]

Unfortunately I don't access to anything other than a very nice, but dead, studio so that will have to do!

I think a spaced pair will work best for me given that there won't be much room sound to capture. I'll post a sample once I've done it.

[klaukholm]

Where is the first and most important decision we make for sessions.
I have yet to record in a room where the players are uncomfortable with the acoustics. It makes them play better which results in better audio.

Personally I would spend a day calling and visiting evey church and town hall and try to rent it on short notice.

[Don S]

Originally Posted by klaukholm

Where is the first and most important decision we make for sessions.
I have yet to record in a room where the players are uncomfortable with the acoustics. It makes them play better which results in better audio.

Personally I would spend a day calling and visiting evey church and town hall and try to rent it on short notice.

Now that I think of it, almost all the Brass Quintet recordings I've done were in decent churches. Most brass players have a short list of favorite places. In contrast to Mr. Bishop's solution of something reflective behind the horn, I can tell you it's not a desirable situation for the horn player. We don't normally have something against our bells. Most ensembles wouldn't rehearse this way. I try to keep musicians as comfortable as possible during sessions.

[sonare]

Originally Posted by Don S

In contrast to Mr. Bishop's solution of something reflective behind the horn, I can tell you it's not a desirable situation for the horn player. We don't normally have something against our bells.

No one said anything about putting a reflector that close, and considering the hand position it isn't even theoretically possible.

What I am suggesting is putting something mildly reflective (standing a flat horn case on end works well) 5 ft or so behind the horn. The acoustics of the room play a large part. The 5ms delay is not enough to foul up the musical communication between players. Place it in a line from the mics to the horn player and continuing on 5 ft.

I have done this many times with players in "top 10" orchestras with positive results.

Rich

[matthewd]

I've just done a semi pro brass quintet and ten piece. Unless the group is tip top, I'd put a mic on each player plus a main pair which would vary according to whether the room is any good. The recital hall wasn't too bad so I had a pair of spaced omnis - DPA 4006s and AKG C214s on the TPTs and U87s on the Horn Tromb and Tuba - no particular reason for these choices other than it was just the best quality mics available at the time. I ended up using the main pair to thicken things up but the majority of it is spot mics via reberb (TC Electronic Reverb 4000 on Natural Hall setting slightly tweaked). We were able to enhance several balance aspects of the performance afterwards which we couldnt have done without the spot mics. The most important production point is that these guys can tire easily so after an exploritory take, I'd usually get them in to listen (rest) and notice the bits that were not working for themselves or tell them nicely if they didn't notice it for themselves. Then we would very often record an ending before going back and doing a complete master take. If something fundamental like the tempo is incorrect, stop them from wasting a whole take's effort on it.

Good luck

Matt

[sonare]

Matt's approach certainly has merit, but I think it also underscores the value of a good producer who can notice balance problems and insert a patch that fixes it. Of course, if the group chops are only lasting about 2 takes per tune that is a real limitation.

Personally I would not want to hear individual instruments, esp if the quality level is not there. Once the players learn that balance can be adjusted, an exponential increase in post-production time will follow-- a natural result of "judgement by committee."

Rich

[Empiria]

There is a sample of Brass Quintet recording I made in ORTF. If you wish to listen...

[matthewd]

Hi there -

Just to pick up on Richard's reply, what I am saying is that the things that separate the good amateur groups from the pros is the ability to balance themselves (in which case the stereo techniques are fine) and the consistency between takes which makes editing much easier. I am sure you all know this so I am not sure quite why I started - just feeling reflective having spent too long on a project.

Matt

[fallforward]

I usually always record chamber ensembles with a main ORTF pair. Usually 10ish feet in front, and above pointing down at them so I don't get any direct hits of anyone sticking out. I then back up the pair as far as the room will permit. Meaning as soon as I start to lose the articulation/attack I pull it closer. Or if I am hearing to much of the (not so nice) room, I will keep it closer and just add in reverb. Likewise if I am in a good room and not hearing enough of the room I will pull the back a little.

In groups such as this where all the instruments are of the same family I hardly ever find the need to spot mic. i.e. chamber chorale, sax group, string quartet, or a brass group like you have. The only thing that I do (if it needs it), and has been mentioned above, is put some kind of reflector behind the horn. I only seem to need to spot mic stuff when instrument families are mixed. Voice and piano, piano trio with violin and cello, sinfonia groups.

Good Luck and have fun!
Robby

[dangoudie]

Did the recording last night and I think it went pretty well.
They were quite good and the arrangements were interesting.

I put up several mics including a 414 blumlein pair, an 87 spaced pair and a 441 straight up the middle. The 87 spaced pair sounded by far the most natural and 'complete'.

Going back in to mix it later so I'll post a sample (if it's good enough!)