my first live gig ! Listen to those guitars !

[lukejs]

OK.. thanks,.. it must have really sucked for not even one person to comment on it.... oh well... I guess when you heard mini disc, you figured it was gonna sound really bad...... oh well.... I´ll record my next live gig with something good so somebody at least comments something !!!! hahahahhah a

[Harley-OIART]

LDC's on a small stage even in Cardiod Pattern Close Mic'd still are way too sensitive for many live acts IMHO. I brought out a 4050 as a favour once for a band, threw it one Marshall 212 real close, it was still too sensitive. Sure it worked, but it was real sensitive and to be honest in hind sight I would have prefered a MD-421, MD-441, SM-57, e-609, or Audix i-5... actually even an SM-58 (With Pop Screen unscrewed if i was really getting picky).

LDCs work great on stages with a big more room for the sound to propagate, especially on OH's. Thats just my opinion though, as there really are no rules IMO except :

-Never Feedback (unless ringing out the system)
-Always know how much headroom u have
-Keep the Stage Volume Low
-Don't Drink when Mixing Live (Excessively)
-Rent or Develop a Set of Golden Ears
-Bring Batteries and Insturment Patch Cords
-Know why your doing what your doing... i.e. Understand the principles behind the techniques your employing (If not, read a book or check G.S)
-Have fun and enjoy making the crowd bounce (or chill out in some cases)


In Reference to your Recorded Board Mix, I really can't hear much room accept for when the crowd applauses, so I don't know how it sounds to the listeners. In general though sounds like it was a good show

I can't offer any mix advice since I was not there and can't hear the room....
Best I can say though is if u are inclined to do it again and again, get some good D.I.'s (Active for Piezo's, Passive for anything and everything else)

Best of luck
Scott Harloff

[lukejs]

Thanks for the response, Scott ! It´s funny you said to bring batteries ! That night, during the concert, a guitarist picked up his battery powered guitar, and the battery was dead ! He looked over at me, and said... what´s up..no sound... and everbody thought I F·$%ed up !! How embarrassing ! Luckily, another guy in the group said he had a battery, but after another guy in the group asked the audience if anybody had a 9 Volt battery !!!
As for feedback, I did have some later that night from a female vocalist´s mic... and even from the mic in one of the acoustic guitars which was really sensitive.. There weren´t even any stage monitors !! the auditorium was pretty big...about 250 people could fit . I had the mic gain only around 30 db, and was wondering how it´s possible that with such low gain, I was getting feedback ? If you have to lower gain to avoid feedback, doesn´t that make the recording less clear ? Any tips on fixing feedback problems are certainly welcome !! Thanks, Luke

[Remoteness]

All in all it sounded pretty good.

What's the deal with the disconnection (buzz/hum) sound we heard?

[lukejs]

Hey ! thanks Steve ! That buzzing sound was from some type of short or something in the guitar cable. When he moved a certain way, it sounded.... I couldn´t figure it out, until he got up after a song, and we heard it again... We promplty changed the cable and saved the day.. but then... that battery went dead in the other guitar !! For both cases, the musicians and the crowd thought I messed up .....mann... I was really thinking that I was messing everything up...good thing we found the culprits and I was off the hook !
As far as the sound of the guitars..I think that for mini disk, it wasn´t too bad...maybe it was because when I got home and recorded the stuff to hard disk, I passed the digital out from the Mini disk player into my Apogee min dac, and recorded to the AD16-x... not using the DA of the mini disc player . Maybe this helped...but I do hear some harsh sound the guitar when he strummed hard... really should have knocked down some highs from the guitar, and given highs to the voice... maybe even lowered volume on guitars in general... oh welll...it was a learning experience !!!!

[Dav Iridium]

Here's another great tip that you may not have heard yet mate.

Always carry a Feedback Buster to plug up the soundhole of an acoustic guitar.

Acoustics are extremely prone to vibrating in sympathy with their PA amplified signal, which in turn will cause feedback through the guitarist's wedges.

Of course, this is only really applicable if the guitar in question already has a pickup built in.

Other than that, watch that the top end doesn't get too piercing, and have fun!!

[lukejs]

Thanks for the advice on the Feedback Buster ! I´ll have to go check that out. The guitarist said his guitar not only had a pickup, but also a microphone, so especially in this case, this feedback buster thing would have come in handy.
As for your comment on not letting the top end get too peircing, that is exactly the word to use for what happened here.... I gave too much of a boost around 2 to 8 khz, and the crappy converters probably accentuated the harshness . Thanks for the advice !! Luke

[bigalw1414]

Originally Posted by lukejs

As for feedback, I did have some later that night from a female vocalist´s mic... and even from the mic in one of the acoustic guitars which was really sensitive.. There weren´t even any stage monitors !! the auditorium was pretty big...about 250 people could fit . I had the mic gain only around 30 db, and was wondering how it´s possible that with such low gain, I was getting feedback ? If you have to lower gain to avoid feedback, doesn´t that make the recording less clear ? Any tips on fixing feedback problems are certainly welcome !! Thanks, Luke

Live sound is a different beast than the studio. There are different priorities. In the studio, you are trying to get the meters in the yellow to maximize signal-to-noise ratio so you crank the gain as much as you can without clipping. However, in live sound you are trying to maximize headroom. It is common to leave the gain trims all the way down and put all of the faders up to unity. From there, you turn up the gain trims until it sounds right. Also, sometimes feedback can be prevented by simply changing the angle of the microphone an inch or two. Try moving the singer back a foot or over to the left. These small things can make a big difference.

Most importantly, crank that kick drum!

[bishopthomas]

Originally Posted by bigalw1414

It is common to leave the gain trims all the way down and put all of the faders up to unity. From there, you turn up the gain trims until it sounds right.

Most importantly, crank that kick drum!

You just mentioned two of my pet peeves in live sound: guys who mix with the gain pots and kick drums that are louder than the vocals. I hate looking at a console and seeing all of the faders at unity. This is NOT the correct way to set your gain structure. Signal to noise ratio is important even in live sound, and the way to avoid noise is by not doing what you describe.

[Andrew B.]

Originally Posted by bishopthomas

You just mentioned two of my pet peeves in live sound: guys who mix with the gain pots and kick drums that are louder than the vocals. I hate looking at a console and seeing all of the faders at unity. This is NOT the correct way to set your gain structure. Signal to noise ratio is important even in live sound, and the way to avoid noise is by not doing what you describe.

Yes!

System gain structure (all the way through from the mic preamps through the mixer summing busses and FX sends/returns to the amps and then speakers) is absolutely *critical* in live sound. Mess it up and you can make a £50k system sound like a £500 system: high noise, no dynamics... yeuch.

Andrew

[bishopthomas]

I do freelance sound and work with one company in particular. The other day we provided the PA for arguably THE biggest name in current rock today. We were auditioning a QSC WideLine array, driven by PL6's and tuned by the QSC engineer who actually designed the system. Anyway, I look over at the MH3 console and their FOH guy had all of the faders in a nice neat row, probably aligned with a yard stick. How some people got where they are today I'll never know.

[Harley-OIART]

Originally Posted by bishopthomas

I do freelance sound and work with one company in particular. The other day we provided the PA for arguably THE biggest name in current rock today. We were auditioning a QSC WideLine array, driven by PL6's and tuned by the QSC engineer who actually designed the system. Anyway, I look over at the MH3 console and their FOH guy had all of the faders in a nice neat row, probably aligned with a yard stick. How some people got where they are today I'll never know.

I guess you have never heard of running the board cold?

You really would rather crank the head amp and then raise the fader only a few nessicarly db's thus leaving the fader in the worst spot of the logarithmic throw?

Umm... How long u been doing this agian?

[bigalw1414]

Originally Posted by Harley-OIART

I guess you have never heard of running the board cold?

You really would rather crank the head amp and then raise the fader only a few nessicarly db's thus leaving the fader in the worst spot of the logarithmic throw?

Umm... How long u been doing this agian?

This is why I keep the faders at near unity. I want to be able to have the most control over the volume. If the gain trim is cranked and I want that channel to be relatively low in the mains, my fader is near the bottom. If I need to change the level later in the show, it becomes very difficult to do without making a large jump in volume. If you run sound for a church, like I do, you're just begging for the dreaded moment when everyone in the congregation turns around to look at you.

[bishopthomas]

I didn't see Harley's post until just now, thus the reason I have not responded. I do not argue the fact that faders have a logarithmic taper. However, I do argue that signal to noise ration is important in live sound, just as it is in a recording studio. If you have to keep all your channel faders down because of volume issues then pull down your master. If you have that one oddball channel that needs to be low in the mix (maybe a screaming guitar) then subgroup it or use a VCA. That way you can group all your guitars, keep them all in an anal retentive line (just kidding with you), pull down the group master, and ride the faders for solos, etc.

But if only one fader is raised slightly and your gain structure is set correctly then it probably means that the instrument is too loud anyway. Kill it in the mix and bring the overall volume down or do what I suggested above. You are implying that gain structure isn't critical for live sound, and I am telling you that I, along with at least 70% of the professional live engineers, think you're wrong. There has been a big discussion on the ProSoundWeb.com forum. Check it out: http://srforums.prosoundweb.com/inde...t/19555/16685/

[bishopthomas]

Oh, and yes, there are lots of times when I have no soundcheck and have to set gains on the fly. But I don't walk up to the console before the show and set all of my faders to unity then reach for the gains. One hand on the gain, the other on the fader. In a split second that channel is finished, with the proper gain structure. If the band started with a soft song then I'll have to readjust for that, and as the show progresses amps tend to creep up, feet and sticks get heavier, etc. I'll adjust when I need to.

[bigalw1414]

I'm certainly not advocating that most most important factor to mixing is whether or not your faders are in a straight line.

Also, I did not intend to infer that gain structure and S/N ratio are unimportant in live sound. What I did intend to say is that S/N ratio is always important in any type of audio environment, but it is especially critical in the recording studio.

I stated that my priorities are in a slightly different order in live sound as compared to the studio. Exactly what order that is depends on the situation. In my experience, live sound requires juggling of changing priorities - sometimes in a pinch I have to sacrifice one for another.

Then again, the type of work I do usually consists of summer festivals with 20 minute sets and 5 minute change-overs and rapid-fire artist showcases with 2-song sets. In these circumstances, my first priority is simply to make sure all of the instruments are represented in the mains at decent levels. If there is noticable noise at this point, I adjust the gain structure to minimalize it. If that means lowering the fader, I do it.

[bishopthomas]

Rock on.

[Remoteness]

See, this one of the things I love about this forum. Everyone has their own perception and concepts on how to do things. I for one have always started with the faders in a straight line. It’s an old school mixing trick -- A kind of manual automation. If you track or mix a live show like this, when you want to start a mix over again all you need to do is put the faders back in a straight line. If you have good mic pres and a good sense of your gain structure I don’t see a problem, but that’s me. YMMV.

Originally Posted by bigalw1414

I'm certainly not advocating that most most important factor to mixing is whether or not your faders are in a straight line.

Also, I did not intend to infer that gain structure and S/N ratio are unimportant in live sound. What I did intend to say is that S/N ratio is always important in any type of audio environment, but it is especially critical in the recording studio.

I stated that my priorities are in a slightly different order in live sound as compared to the studio. Exactly what order that is depends on the situation. In my experience, live sound requires juggling of changing priorities - sometimes in a pinch I have to sacrifice one for another.

Then again, the type of work I do usually consists of summer festivals with 20 minute sets and 5 minute change-overs and rapid-fire artist showcases with 2-song sets. In these circumstances, my first priority is simply to make sure all of the instruments are represented in the mains at decent levels. If there is noticable noise at this point, I adjust the gain structure to minimalize it. If that means lowering the fader, I do it.