12 channel multi-pin connector?

[nathanvacha]

basically, anyone know of a 12 channel (balanced, so a 36 pin) connector? theory being a 12 channel snake without the patch box hardwired... but i don't want to end up with 2 db25's, either...

[Remoteness]

The standard in the broadvast (TV audio) world has been the DT12 (Cannon FK37) connector.

Gepco

Nemal Electronics

Whirlwind

Canare

...And when you want to test these puppies Studio Technologies has the answer.

We have installed quite a few chassis mounted DT12s in Elroy. Besides the 3 56 channel MASS W4 connectors totalling 168 inputs, we also included 8 DT12s. Four (48 channels) as inputs to our Aux (broadcast) desk, plus two additional DT12s (24 channels) as output tie lines and another two (24 channels) as input tie lines for the Auxilary (broadcast) desk & patch bay position. This way, we can interface with any TV truck without using adaptors and such.

The other side of the truck handles all the digital interfacing via AES & MADI...
But, that's another story.

[nathanvacha]

yeah, and genius that i am, i waited until after posting to realize there are 37 pin d-sub connectors... any thoughts on whether either those or the dt12's hold up any better?

I think a d-sub may fit, like physically fit the stage box better, but really either should work.

Are the dt12's thought to be more durable?

[edit]

oh, just looked at those and wow. any reason they're so expensive? I saw 50ft cables for like... $300? I could make a 50 ft db37 for like... 70 or 80 bucks.

[mpdonahue]

Originally Posted by nathanvacha

oh, just looked at those and wow. any reason they're so expensive? I saw 50ft cables for like... $300? I could make a 50 ft db37 for like... 70 or 80 bucks.

the real question is what will happen when a fork lift runs over the connector? The DT-12 is a real rugged connector that is easily field repairable. While we use 50 pin D-subs for 12 and 16 pair interconnection snakes, anything that will make it's way to the stage should be a little tougher.
You also need to compare apples and apples. The $70 or $80 home made snake doesn't factor in the time to assemble and test, while the $300 snake is ready made.
The real difference will come in a few years, when the Dsub is unreliable while the DT12 is still functioning like new.
Just my $0.02
All the best,
mark

[Jim vanBergen]

Originally Posted by nathanvacha

Are the dt12's thought to be more durable?
any reason they're so expensive?

DT-12 connectors and the Whirlwind W4 are really good 12-pairs. The DT-12 is Mil-spec, its incredibly rugged. They are both SIGNIFICANTLY more durable, the DT-12 being the MOST durable multipin connector made to date (for line or mic level balanced audio, as opposed to the SocaPex for mutichannel high voltage.)

Steve's suggestions are right on the money. Dsubs are HORRID connections. REALLY, they suck. You don't want to consider Dsub, be it a 25 or 37 pin, for a stage box or mult run. You'd be much better off with a connected stage box if you want to save money. But please, don't think you can use a d-sub connector as a working connector, you will only live to regret it. It's an incredibly flimsy connector that is hard to keep made, and was never intended for the uses it sees today. You'd be just as foolish to try and make an Adat or Toslink stage box. One shoe, and it's all over!

[Remoteness]

What Mark and Jim said exactly!!!

Let me be crystal clear -- DO NOT USE DSUBs FOR STAGE BOXES OR SNAKES...

DT12s are the standard in the broadcast industry for a reason.

MASS W4s can handle up to 58 balanced circuits. I've wired mine as 48s; 52s and 56s.

You get what you pay for and in the long run you will win with the better apparatus.

[nathanvacha]

shite. anyone think any better of elco type connectors?

Maybe i'll see if i can come up with some surplus dt12's.

I do appreciate all the input guys.

[Remoteness]

I would not trust ELCOs for stage box useage especially when you're not the one connecting and disconnecting.

We use ELCOs for our racks and CRM panels. All our associates understand the amount of care that's needed when dealing with ELCOs. I'm not sure I can trust a inexperienced stagehand with that task.

[rmx16]

"I'm not sure I can trust a inexperienced stagehand with that task."

Steve
Be nice...

Rob

[Remoteness]

Well, I didn't say stagehand, I said inexperienced stagehand which are two different things for sure.

[Jim vanBergen]

Originally Posted by rmx16

"I'm not sure I can trust a inexperienced stagehand with that task."

Steve
Be nice...

Rob

I thought Steve was being accurate. I won't trust 90% of IATSE or IBEW hands with Elco, db25, Wireworks Gblock OR Whirlwind MASS connectors. And I am member of Local 1, IATSE....I know of what I speak. 5% of IATSE are sound people, and half of those will know how to mate it right the first time.

No offense, my brethren. We're just trying to keep the connections solid!

Nothing is worse than finding someone tried to force a Gblock in upside down, or shoved a W4 connector improperly and you pay $1600 to have either one re-pinned because it takes 12 hours to do it right.

[rmx16]

Steve and Jim
I agree with you and I'm not dissing my IA brothers and sisters either.I've seen guys dealing with Mass conectors with a pipe wrench

Peace
Rob Ottaviano
IATSE#77
AC NJ

[nathanvacha]

so i had some time on this, and ended up picking up seven 24 pin mil spec connectors at a surplus store this weekend for 14 dollars and a few m.a. rack panels so the plan's up to 3 8 channel stage boxes mating to one panel wired to at least an 85 pin for the main snake (currently a whirlwind 28 pair)

i have plenty of time on my hands now to spend soldering (or crimping) so the new question is what to use for the main snake connections at the stage rack and at the desk.

I or my partner will be mating these, always, so i am not horribly concerned with stage hands since, well, we don't hire any. so are elco's the way to go?

where can i even price mass or mil spec multipin connectors new? i've been looking all day.

[Remoteness]

It's too bad you couldn't go with the Canon FK37 (as known as DT12) connectors since video truck has them available when you need them in a pinch.

If you went with DT12, you could have two 12 channel stage boxes that can be dropped in two different places, set-up next to each other or used in two different locations all together.

If you're super carefull and always check for bent or recessed pins before mating, ELCO / EDAC connectors can work.
I would also carry a ELCO tools and parts just in case...

In any event, all the best on your wiring party!

[nathanvacha]

i decided to forego the dt12's just because we really don't interface with anybody right now, just lower-end live sound w/ recording and we're looking for the smartest way to build our system for the next few years of use at least. income just doesn't justify it i guess.

so elco's it is, i suppose. of course i would always carry spares, but with elco's that's affordable.

[Remoteness]

Okay then, just be very careful...

Call me anytime if you need some one on one advice typing will not get you.

[nathanvacha]

appreciate it. advice from you is a big deal, i'm continually impressed with what i see in every shot you post. , i come on here and show people your pics when i need to show someone what a rig/jobsite should look like.

[Remoteness]

Thank you for the very kind words!

Boy, I wish I invited you to the Orlando gig we just did last week!

Hey, next time I'm in town I'll send you a message.

Thanks again.

[valleysound]

Maybe a little too late to mention, but there is the CPC connector that is 12 channel. Ramtech makes them or you can shop online and find all the parts you need to make your own fairly cheaply. They have metal versions too, not just the original plastic ones.
http://www.ramtech.net/cpc.htm

[alex!]

Wow, I have never heard of a DT12 or perhaps it is called something different here in montreal, or maybe I'm still a little "green"? Is the locking system a threaded ring on the male end or a larger guide for notches like VEAM. I usually run into VEAM and Socapex 3/37 connectors, but from the photo's I've seen on the web it looks like its interchangeable with socapex cause it resembles some 19pin models I've come across. And there must be a standardized pinout as well, I'd be curious to see if it resembles what I've used for VEAM37!

[rmx16]

Originally Posted by alex!

Wow, I have never heard of a DT12 or perhaps it is called something different here in montreal, or maybe I'm still a little "green"? Is the locking system a threaded ring on the male end or a larger guide for notches a VEAM. I usually run into VEAM and Socapex 3/37 connectors, but from the photo's I've seen on the web it looks like its interchangeable with socapex cause it resembles some 19pin models I've come across. And there must be a standardized pinout as well, I'd be curious to see if it resembles what I've used for VEAM37!

You must work for "SoloTech"

Peace

[alex!]

Originally Posted by rmx16

You must work for "SoloTech"

Peace

hahaha

no, not directly… I did spend all last summer in their shop soldering cables for them during a big rush though. A really great learning experience that will serve me well if ever get an apprenticeship. Anyone looking for an apprentice hit me up!!! I will transplant myself for the opportunity!

[Ken Paul]

Originally Posted by alex!

Wow, I have never heard of a DT12 or perhaps it is called something different here in montreal, or maybe I'm still a little "green"? Is the locking system a threaded ring on the male end or a larger guide for notches a VEAM. I usually run into VEAM and Socapex 3/37 connectors, but from the photo's I've seen on the web it looks like its interchangeable with socapex cause it resembles some 19pin models I've come across. And there must be a standardized pinout as well, I'd be curious to see if it resembles what I've used for VEAM37!

Gepco sells the Veam version. I wired a few hundred of them at the NBC affiliate here in Chicago years ago.

Ken Paul
Kengineering

[David Rick]

My recording snake was built by the Radial Engineering custom shop. Its "Tourline" DT-12 compatible connector is one of the most gorgeous things I've ever seen. They source it from a company called Ten 47 Limited in Scotland. Unfortunately, there seems to be no U.S. distributor for these connectors. But here's a PDF catalog from the website of a European distributor.

David L. Rick
Seventh String Recording

[Remoteness]

Originally Posted by alex!

Wow, I have never heard of a DT12 or perhaps it is called something different here in montreal, or maybe I'm still a little "green"? Is the locking system a threaded ring on the male end or a larger guide for notches like VEAM. I usually run into VEAM and Socapex 3/37 connectors, but from the photo's I've seen on the web it looks like its interchangeable with socapex cause it resembles some 19pin models I've come across. And there must be a standardized pinout as well, I'd be curious to see if it resembles what I've used for VEAM37!

DT12 was coined by Whirlwind.
It's a Canon FK37 connector.
It's the standard analog multicore snake connector for the television production industry.

You will find them on all TV production trucks.

Game Creek just saved our arses this past weekend (during the Newport Jazz Festival) with 1500 feet of the stuff. We needed (last minute) 24 channels of multicore to run from the main stage (about 750 feet) to the Pavilion stage to capture Soulive.

I knew since Game Creek's "Yankee Clipper" is primarily a TV sports truck they had to have the snake runs we need to reach that stage.

[Remoteness]

Originally Posted by David Rick

My recording snake was built by the Radial Engineering custom shop. Its "Tourline" DT-12 compatible connector is one of the most gorgeous things I've ever seen. They source it from a company called Ten 47 Limited in Scotland. Unfortunately, there seems to be no U.S. distributor for these connectors. But here's a PDF catalog from the website of a European distributor.

David L. Rick
Seventh String Recording

Ten 47 Ltd. also make a great MASS W4 connect that we have in our inventory.