Korg MR-1000 / 1bit-5.8MHz DSD portable recorder

[Synthi]

Hey!

New update available (v1.5.0 and audiogate 1.1):

korg.com



Mp3 support, some good metering options, better navigation, some cool new features...
Ah! the problem pointed by plush ("hd busy" message after long pauses) has been resolved too...

Synthi

[abit]

Originally Posted by PMoshay

With the Audiogate software, you can take your 1bit files and convert them to say "24bit/192k/wave" for mastering elsewhere if they do not handle 1bit files......

Can I monitor outs from MR-1000 while printing/recording my mix to it?
Thank you.

[Synthi]

abit: do you mean monitoring using the MR1000 outs while recording to the MR using analog in??? of course...!

Synthi

[abit]

Yep
Got it.
Thanx Synthi.

[Plush]

Originally Posted by Synthi

Hey!

New update available (v1.5.0 and audiogate 1.1):

korg.com



Mp3 support, some good metering options, better navigation, some cool new features...
Ah! the problem pointed by plush ("hd busy" message after long pauses) has been resolved too...

Synthi

What excellent news! A salute to Korg for such good anticipation of user's needs.
I will load the soft over the weekend. Niiiiiiiiiisssssssssch.

[raal]

so who's using it as a master recorder? i'm thinking of using it at the end of a folcrom w/pre of choice.

would be cool if they made a 'pro' version with digital and balanced ins, etc., but it's a good idea they're making it cheap for people to get into DSD.

[Synthi]

raal, the MR-1000 already have balanced i/o (for both the mic and line inputs) and is a pro piece of gear. I`m using it as a master recorder and it sound really good.
About the digital input I can´t see the point of having it since is a dsd recorder and digital inputs are for pcm...

Best Regards,

Synthi.

[Bluzzi]

Originally Posted by Synthi

raal, the MR-1000 already have balanced i/o (for both the mic and line inputs) and is a pro piece of gear. I`m using it as a master recorder and it sound really good.
About the digital input I can´t see the point of having it since is a dsd recorder and digital inputs are for pcm...

Best Regards,

Synthi.

Exactly! Any improvement would have to come from any analog circuitry before and after the converters. But for the money? Nothing better out there for the moment (as an all in one 2 track recorder with a hard disk).

jim

[raal]

Originally Posted by Synthi

raal, the MR-1000 already have balanced i/o (for both the mic and line inputs) and is a pro piece of gear. I`m using it as a master recorder and it sound really good. About the digital input I can´t see the point of having it since is a dsd recorder and digital inputs are for pcm...

Best Regards,

Synthi.

hi Synthi,

i stand corrected as to the balanced inputs, but the Tascam unit has both PCM and DSD digital inputs for example. nice feature if one has other converters one would like to try.

Originally Posted by Bluzzi

Exactly! Any improvement would have to come from any analog circuitry before and after the converters. But for the money? Nothing better out there for the moment (as an all in one 2 track recorder with a hard disk).

jim

for the money i'm sure it's a bargain and i apologize if this sounds snotty, but for the price i can't imagine the box's analog part being able to be top notch.

by 'pro' i meant having the ability to use ext. converters and/or the unit having a very high quality analog side.

the Tascam DVRA1000 does have digital ins but doesn't sample @ 5.6MHz. it also seems the Korg's software and layout are very well thought out, so i was just wondering who's been using it as a master recorder and their impressions. Baithak seems to have gotten some nice results with Millenia pres.

[Bluzzi]

No snotty but Gearslutty!

Yeah, I agree the analogue for the price is probably not what it can be. But its far superior to the Alesis Masterlink from what many are saying and those have been used as master recorders for years.

If you have unlimited budget there are probably better solutions but for me this is incredible.

jim

[tsvisser]

Originally Posted by Synthi

raal, the MR-1000 already have balanced i/o (for both the mic and line inputs) and is a pro piece of gear. I`m using it as a master recorder and it sound really good.
About the digital input I can´t see the point of having it since is a dsd recorder and digital inputs are for pcm...

Best Regards,

Synthi.

just to clarify, DSD is digital too... there are DSD AD converters out there, and the small minority of people out there who have such devices might find it convenient to be able to track to a hard drive unit, portable or otherwise.

[kevinQ]

Bluzzi,

King of recorder mods, Doug Oade, is apparently taking a look at the MR1000. In an email to a member of The Taperssection Forums he wrote:

"HI !
Not yet [referring to Oade offering an analog stage mod for the MR1000] but I am working on it and hope top have one soon. It may take me a month or so to decide what, if anything, can be done to improve it but I will find out !
peace...Doug"

This thread includes impressions and opinions of the MR1000 from a number of early adopters, including at least one complaint that has been addressed by the recent firmware upgrade. Way to go, Korg!

[Plush]

This KORG unit is designed by the inventor of DSD. That is certainly good news.

We have been using this box to record an orchestra two mix, going analog in from an analog console. Sound is incredible at 5.6 MHz.

The analog input electronics of the KORG seem quite good indeed. What would lead some posters here to doubt the circuit design when it was overseen by the Japanese professor? All that is required is a carefully thought out chip complement and minimal circuit path.

Are complaining and doubting posters looking for an analog stage that is heavy and includes transformers? What is the complaint exactly, based upon your usage?
Is it the cost vis a vis a Sony Sonoma system and those effete converters from Canada? Is the KORG simply too cheap? The answer is NO.


I have also used the Tascam 1000 machine for several years and it is also good.
We use it in pcm and also DSD with a NEVE DPD DSD converter. The sound is excellent, but the KORG is sampling at an even higher rate and also sounds KILLER. Battery operation is super convenient and the soft works well. I'm super impressed.

Unit is quality made in Japan, not made in China. I will gladly pay for this quality and I salute KORG for a job well done.

Best from Chicago,
PlushPhonic

[raal]

Originally Posted by Plush

All that is required is a carefully thought out chip complement and minimal circuit path. Are complaining and doubting posters looking for an analog stage that is heavy and includes transformers? What is the complaint exactly, based upon your usage?

i hope my posts didn't come off as complaints, specially since i haven't tried it. what i was trying to say is that the machine seems like a very well thought out product in every detail, including the price. but for the price, i couldn't expect it to have a top quality analog front and back end. if i am wrong in making this assumption i apologize.

I have also used the Tascam 1000 machine for several years and it is also good. We use it in pcm and also DSD with a NEVE DPD DSD converter. The sound is excellent, but the KORG is sampling at an even higher rate and also sounds KILLER. Battery operation is super convenient and the soft works well. I'm super impressed.

thank you for the comparison. so do you think the performance of the unit could be up there with a Tascam and something like Neve DPD or dCS? what i like about the Korg is the idea of 5.6kHz capability for archiving and downsampling later. if it had digital inputs it would be a no brainer for me, and by your description even without digital ins it may be.

i'm just trying to gather some information before buying either product. portability doesn't really matter for my purposes. thank you.

[Sinewave]

PSN

Live Nation Goes DSD with Genex

Mel Lambert's feature from January 2007 issue of "Pro Sound News"

PSN 0107PSN 0107Live Nation has taken delivery of several Genex Direct Stream Digital (DSD) Mixing/Recording Systems to be installed at performance venues around the United States. The initial order comprises several Mix+ Systems plus companion GX9000 Series DSD hard-disk recorders, and Live Nation’s first Smart AV ARC control surface. Interestingly, the single controller will be used to mix sound for multiple venues from a single location via the Live Nations Studios wide area network. Live Nation plans to add more Genex systems after an initial evaluation period.

Described as the first world’s first DSD Recording and Mixing Package, and unveiled at November’s AES Convention in San Francisco, Mix+ was developed jointly by Oxford Digital (a spin-off of Sony’s Pro Audio Lab), Smart AV and Genex Audio. Mix+ eliminates the requirement for conversion stages when working on Direct Stream Digital projects, and allows signals to be recorded, edited and mixed entirely within the DSD domain. The Smart AV control surface issues commands to Oxford Digital’s proprietary DSD Mix Engine using the Ethernet-capable OSC protocol. Oxford Digital EQ and dynamics are provided on all channels; the package also includes a Waves effects processor. Mix+ handles 56 channels and 16 configurable busses into a 2U chassis, and communicates directly with a 48-in/48-out interface unit that features Tonelux remote-controlled mic pre-amps designed by Paul Wolff. “This new system represents the final part in the end-to-end native DSD production chain,” says Oxford Digital’s John Richards. “The market has long demanded more tools for DSD production.’”

Headquartered in Los Angeles, Live Nation is considered the world's leading live entertainment company, annually serving audiences of more than 67 million at over 33,000 events. Globally, the company owns, operates and/or has booking rights for more than 170 venues, including the House of Blues-branded music venues and San Francisco's Fillmore Auditorium, in addition to London's Apollo Theatre and Wembley Arena. The new DSD systems will be used to produce a variety of media, during and after the concerts, including DVDs and TV broadcasts from the venues, plus MP3 files downloadable, webcasts and mobile content.

According to Andy Scarth, Live Nation Studios’ Head of Audio, speaking in an exclusive PSN-Europe interview, “DSD was selected as our mixing and recording format for the new systems because everything else is derived from DSD, which makes it the most future-proof format.” As is well known, all modern A-to-D converters generate a one-bit DSD format signal that is then filtered using digital decimation to produce multibit PCM-format signals at a targeted sampling frequency.

“The Mix+ Engine, based on an Oxford Digital card and commanded from a host PC running our custom-developed software, operates in DSD64 one-bit format mode at a 2.8224 MHz sampling rate,” explains Genex Audio president Kevin Brown. Genex developed the new DSD system “because there is a real and urgent need in the pro-audio industry for production tools that are flexible enough to deal both with the ever increasing bandwidths of high-end digital audio, and to be able to seamlessly switch between existing and emerging digital formats,” Brown considers. “We offer sample-accurate editing in native DSD.” A DSD128 upgrade is planned for mid-2007.

The Direct Stream Digital media format has enjoyed a checkered ancestry. Promoted originally by Sony Corporation and Philips as a release medium for Super Audio CD multichannel and stereo offerings, DSD has also found favor as an acquisition format for high-end classical music, jazz and opera. Its development - and progress against more conventional PCM multi-bit technologies - has been somewhat hampered, however, by a lack of production tools, although both Merging Technologies and SADiE offer DSD-capable waveform editors and workstations; Sony also developed the Sonoma editing system, which was made available for SACD and related productions. But the decision some 18 months ago by Sony/Philips to discontinue support of the format via subsisted access to editing systems plus technical support, has not enhanced the format’s professional profile. Sony continues to offer SACD releases; the new PlayStation III and VAIO PCs replay such media.

“There is a well-defined if limited consumer market for high-resolution audio,” considers SADiE’s Geoff Calver, “especially with the added dimension of surround sound.” Early next year EMI will start re-issuing a total of 14 Genesis studio albums as Super Audio CD/DVD double-disc sets that feature newly re-mastered 5.1 surround and stereo mixes. (It is worth noting that arguably the most successful SACD release - Pink Floyd's re-issue of "The Dark Side of The Moon" - was edited and mixed from 24-bit/96 kHz PCM files, rather than DSD source elements.)

In recent years both AMS-Neve and Euphonix have developed DSD-capable versions of their digital processing cores. But reaction to technology demonstrations at the May 2004 AES Berlin Convention of a Euphonix System 5 surface controlling 16 DSD channels inside an Oxford Mix Engine, a company source says, did not attract significant customer interest, mainly because of a high price ticket. Korg and Tascam also offer studio and portable DSD recorders.

The contents of this news feature is exclusive to and the sole property of Media&Marketing ©2007. All rights reserved. This material cannot be reproduced in whole or in part without written permission.
"PSN" page designs and editorial contents ©2007 NewBay Media. All rights reserved.


©2007 Media&Marketing. All Rights Reserved. Last revised: 01.24.07




I know that some of you guys have a beef with GENEX, but they seem to be doing some intresting stuff with DSD, they claim true 1 bit editing, no conversion to DSD wide or narrow, if it's true it could mean a significant leap when it comes to providing the tools to do a modern multitrack recording in DSD, so what do you guys think? are they just blowing smoke or are they on to something.

[petsematary]

Is the case itself made from metal or plastic? It looks metal but I suppose it could just as well be silver coloured plastic.

[Plush]

It is both metal and plastic, although primarily the former.

It is lightweight and appears durable. (talk to me in a year dontchaknow)

I can report that the sound is incredible--and I'm a pretty tough and experienced judge.

It's not a Nagra, but you're not paying a Nagra price for it either.

[petsematary]

Thanks. Solid build quality is really important to me. That and decent, low-noise preamps. This one looks really interesting, I gotta say. I'm sure I can the answer in the thread but dang, it's a zillion pages long: what are the pre's like? For dynamic mics especially. Okay? Better than Marantz PMD crap?

[zenmastering]

Are they really claiming to be doing everything in '1-bit'?

If they are, then it's B.S. The Oxford Mix engine is DSD-wide (or PCM-narrow, if you wish) and so is any level - change computation. Just because data enters and leaves the Sony E-chip (or SuperMac card) as 1- bit doesn't mean that there isn't a decimator/accumulator/modulator path inside it.

Graemme

Originally Posted by Sinewave

I know that some of you guys have a beef with GENEX, but they seem to be doing some intresting stuff with DSD, they claim true 1 bit editing, no conversion to DSD wide or narrow, if it's true it could mean a significant leap when it comes to providing the tools to do a modern multitrack recording in DSD, so what do you guys think? are they just blowing smoke or are they on to something.

[Sinewave]

Are they really claiming to be doing everything in '1-bit'?

Hey graemme, from my last e- mail with Genex, they claimed true 1 bit, thats why i asked you guys if you think it's possible since it would mean the multitracking tools for DSD would be available. I guess as time goes along we are gonna find out the truth of the matter.

[nobtwiddler]

I use my Genex 9048 in DSD as a multitrack, with no major problems so far...
Had a rough time with the user interface, but other then that so far so good.

Although there is no editing as yet, but Kevin has in fact promised the editing software sometime in the near future....
He needs to get it done for the Live Nation thing he's involved in at the moment.
Which means what exactly?
Your guess is as good as mine.

[Plush]

Sine wave wrote: "I know that some of you guys have a beef with GENEX, but they seem to be doing some intresting stuff with DSD, they claim true 1 bit editing, no conversion to DSD wide or narrow, if it's true it could mean a significant leap when it comes to providing the tools to do a modern multitrack recording in DSD, so what do you guys think? are they just blowing smoke or are they on to something.
__________________
Friends don't let Friends use PCM
Sinewave"


Hello Sinewave,

As I mentioned last Fall, you enjoy bringing the writings of DSD pimps into this forum.
YOur latest posting is a press release masquerading as news from "Pro Sound News."

You posit that a "significant leap" might be made? Why would that be?

The problem is that you then correspond with Genex, for example, and then do not believe what they tell you. You attempt to confirm their disinformation here in a general forum when what you really need to do is consult further with the dissembling manufacturer. I have the impression that you do not understand the technical matters sufficiently to question and confirm what Genex is up to. Neither do we have the patience to wait for Genex to tell the truth.

If you are interested in multi-track DSD then rent a machine and see how it goes for you. There are any number of knowledgeable DSD-ists here who offer edit capability and who could help you finish the project.

My comments here are from the perspective of one who never embraced DSD because of the akwardness of post production with the format. I am finding this new KORG machine with its AudioGate soft to be impressive.
Of course this new machine is aimed at two track recording and mastering.

Do you have a spare $450,000? That's what it would take to work with multi-track DSD. The main expense involved is hiring a respected and capable acoustician to design your new listening room. This excellently built room is necessary so that you can hear the difference between you DSD rig and any of the garden variety available alternatives on the market currently.

[DSD_Mastering]

Originally Posted by Plush

Do you have a spare $450,000? That's what it would take to work with multi-track DSD. The main expense involved is hiring a respected and capable acoustician to design your new listening room. This excellently built room is necessary so that you can hear the difference between you DSD rig and any of the garden variety available alternatives on the market currently.

This is exactly what I did. Though to get into a DSD editing DAW cost much less... ~$15k, to hear the benefits over high-rez PCM you need to spend the rest in converters, monitoring and the ROOM!!
I'll give you as unbiased opinion about Genex as I can. Kevin doesn't know how to say NO and tries to please everyone, even if it means stepping on a few of us "non big-shots".
This deal with Live Nation has been going on for sometime. He can't support it. That's what happened with Merging... failed partnership. That's probably what's going to happen with Tonelux. JMHO. This "1-bit" editing that has been promised will never materialize.
Genex stuff is great equipment... when it works. Genex just doesn't have the support staff to keep it running. No wonder there are so many pissed off people that bought the GX8500. They dropped it and the support just like Tascam. But the thing with Tascam is that they have the $$ to back their ventures. I used a Genex GX9048 for a few months and it worked flawlessly.
If anyone wants to get into DSD editing, there are DSD multi-tracking tools already available, Pyramix and Sonoma. I have a Pyramix DSD/PCM Mastering rig using the EMM Labs ADC8IV/DAC8IV. I dump my 2-track archive to a Tascam DV-RA1000. Since the Korg can do 5.6, I'll probably get that too. I"m getting a lot of business from people that have recorded multiple 2 track recordings in DSD to put together for Mixing/Mastering.

Regards,
Bruce

[Sinewave]

The problem is that you then correspond with Genex, for example, and then do not believe what they tell you. You attempt to confirm their disinformation here in a general forum when what you really need to do is consult further with the dissembling manufacturer

Dear Plush,
I have not corresponded with Genex for a long time, the information that i presented above was to share with people who are "intrested" in DSD, what i have found concerning any advances in DSD, weather or not these people are fully engrossed in DSD does not matter to me, but in the spirit of this thread, (which i know concerns the Korg ) i shared info concerning DSD.
You seem to know that it is disinformation, how would you know that ? are you privy to the something that the rest of us don't know, please share.
Weather it is true or not as i said above only time will tell, i do not readily accept everything every one says as true ( even from you ) and i do not seek confirmation from a general forum concerning DSD, i only seek other opinions.

You posit that a "significant leap" might be made? Why would that be?

Go do a search in this forum or another concerning DSD, most would argue against DSD, based on the fact that the production tools that they are accustomed to in other formats are not easily available,so also the abilty to edit DSD, yet i am posting info about a manufacturer who is probaly making the first attemp to provide those tools to those who are "INTRESTED " in DSD.
You are aware that thier are some of us who do music other than classical and where the multitraking approach is just as valid as the two track stereo.
Is does not matter that you do not like the current manufacturer , others may follow then you may feel comfortable enough to buy thier product.

Neither do we have the patience to wait for Genex to tell the truth.

Ignore genex, if the technology works then others may follow, i was thinking if it works then for those who are "intrested " they can have a lot more info about what others are doing with the technology, check the postings in this thread some people want more than a two track stereo recorder.

Do you have a spare $450,000? That's what it would take to work with multi-track DSD. The main expense involved is hiring a respected and capable acoustician to design your new listening room. This excellently built room is necessary so that you can hear the difference between you DSD rig and any of the garden variety available alternatives on the market currently.

Dear plush, i have friends who love everything to do with cars, and just because they they can't afford to buy the latest sports car that doesn't stop them picking up the latest car magazine and reading about the latest in sports car technology.
have a nice day.

[Sinewave]

I'll give you as unbiased opinion about Genex as I can. Kevin doesn't know how to say NO and tries to please everyone, even if it means stepping on a few of us "non big-shots".
This deal with Live Nation has been going on for sometime. He can't support it. That's what happened with Merging... failed partnership. That's probably what's going to happen with Tonelux. JMHO. This "1-bit" editing that has been promised will never materialize

As i said above ignore genex, i was wary of bringing up the name since it might stir up some ill feelings with some of you, think about the technology involved and weather it is possible or not, if not then so be it , life goes on.

[subspace]

So, has anybody directly compared the sound of mixing to the MR-1000 and converting to a 24 bit WAV through the included software with just recording straight to 24 bit via a high quality (Lavry/Mytek/etc) converter? I don't do mobile recording, so the only point in getting this for me would be as a 2 track mixdown recorder from my analog desk. $1200 for something that compares favorably to high end outboard A/Ds sounds great to me, as I want a stand-alone 2 track anyway, and a quality 2 channel A/D would be at least an additional $1k on top of whatever it costs...
TIA

[Bluzzi]

Don't forget that above the AD, you need DA and you need a way to get it into your computer for recording, editing and burning.

jim

[mytek]

Do you have a spare $450,000? That's what it would take to work with multi-track DSD. .

FWIW. Mytek 8X192 does 8 channel ADDA DSD conversion including 5.8 MHz DSD and it's a _high_end_ DSD, if you like DSD give it a try- you want be dissapointed. It also does PCM in the same box so there is opportunity to compare formats right in this box without a bias of different signal paths.

Regards , Michal

MYTEK DIGITAL USA

[meatling]

Originally Posted by petsematary

what are the pre's like? For dynamic mics especially. Okay? Better than Marantz PMD crap?

According to these figures, it's probably not better than the PMD.

-117dBu EIN is nothing to write home about, and significantly worse than the PMD. Plus, 46 dB max amplification won't be enough for most dynamic mics, no?

m

[Synthi]

meatling, I think that testing page is crap...

Noise figures at max gain settings? What do you know about a mic pre from that data?
Just keep in mind the response of the mic pres gain vs noise, the same pre with worse noise figures at max gain can be very quiet at 90%, even quieter than other preamp at 50%...

Welll, you get the noise at max gain, but again I never push gear to the limit, not because the noise, but the THD will increase in an exponential way with gain.
Also, you must take in account the medium, samplerate and bit resolution you are using for the recording, if you are using the MR1000 in DSD why do you want to record so hot levels?

Best Regards,

Synthi.