Korg MR-1000 / 1bit-5.8MHz DSD portable recorder

[PMoshay]

Originally Posted by Sinewave

Yes but what do you think about the quality of the Audiogate conversions ?

They sounded as good as the conversion in Wavelab (which i think sounds very good, and much better than PT).
Audiogate is very well done.

[PMoshay]

Originally Posted by bluecouchstudio

Peter,

how long do the batteries last? is there a low-battery warning? thanks.

The user manual states 4hours of continuous record time or playback time on Alkaline or Nickel Metal-Hydride rechargeable batteries.

A Led will light when the batteries get low and there is a small battery indicator on the LCD screen

Also as a note - other features:

1. You can lock files in the unit to protect from accidental erasure

2.The LCD screen is backlit and can be set to auto turn-off (like a iPod) to save battery life.

3. There is a DSD Output filter setting (you can set to on or off) - this will apply a DSD filter (-3.0db at the pass frequency of 50kHz). this is set in the system prefs (on or off).

4. the unit has a setting for auto shutdown. 1min-3-5-10-20-30-off

5. the unit has provisions to upload software updates to it

[Albert]

Originally Posted by PMoshay

2. There dones not seem to be a logical reason to be able to do those conversions inside the MR1000. Once you record something, you still need to transfer it to a computer, at that point you can use the included Audiogate software to convert it to anything you want (except MP3..use iTunes or something)

That was a concern of mine before I understood that the unit will be able to record 24bit PCM, as well as 1bit. Obviously, if it will do 24bit natively there's no need for conversion if recordings are done PCM.

[raal]

Originally Posted by crna59

My Pyramix DSD Mastering rig allows you to engage a low pass filter when working in the DSD mode. I have found no audible difference either way.
I have also been receiving more DSD files for mastering now that the Tascam unit has been out a while. I've even gotten multiple files of DSD where some people have sync'd 2 or more of the Tascam units together for multi-tracking in the DSD mode. Now that the Korg is out, I see more of the scenario in the future.

Regards,
Bruce

thank you very much for your answer. so when you master, do you do it in the analog domain or is this possible in Pyramix itself (excuse my ignorance)? and after mastering you then make another DSD file, effectively going through 2 generations of DSD, and it sounds good to you?

if this is a simple question i apologize.

[crna59]

Originally Posted by raal

thank you very much for your answer. so when you master, do you do it in the analog domain or is this possible in Pyramix itself (excuse my ignorance)? and after mastering you then make another DSD file, effectively going through 2 generations of DSD, and it sounds good to you?

if this is a simple question i apologize.

If I don't do any edits, I can stay completely in the DSD domain. Pyramix DSD => Emm Labs DA => Analog gear (EQ/Comp..etc) => Emm Labs AD => Pyramix DSD.
If I do it completely ITB, then when I open the project, Pyramix will ask me if I want to work in DXD mode. When I finish, Pyramix reverts back to DSD files. So either way, if I go from DSD to analog to DSD or DSD to DXD to DSD, I can't hear a difference!

Regards,
Bruce

[raal]

again thank you very much Bruce. ... so the HF noise problem with multiple DSD passes obviously isn't a universally accepted fact.

[raal]

sorry to belabour this discussion but i found this here http://www.sa-cd.net/showthread/18108//y?page=first

if these are observations are factual, i don't understand why the inherent problem is not a 'problem' to some people, including MEs such as Bruce Brown. i'm truly confused. is this HF noise caveat just negative propaganda? if it isn't, why isn't this noise audible or at least measurable?

Post by DAD-Digital Audio De December 20, 2006 (3 of 22)

reply
Dear Claude

Thanks for telling me. I was not aware of that, however the main reason for my Tread is not the Mozart recording itself. My issue is to bring some expert knowledge to this forum about the technology used for SACD production.

We are the manufacture and developer of the Sphynx 2 converter (and our own AX24 converter) used for the Mozart recording. Together with Merging Technologies we have developed a solution for DXD recordings.

As you can see I have recommended everybody to read:
http://www.digitalaudio.dk/technical...ion%20v3.5.pdf

This article is explaining the benefits of DXD for SACD production.

Allow me a short and popular explanation of the reasons behind our technologies:

1. In a multi bit (PCM) A/D audio converter all frequencies is mirrored around half sampling rate.

2. As a consequence multi bit (PCM) audio sampling can not reproduce higher frequencies than half the sample rate.

3. The mirrored frequencies will loose their harmonic relationship to the original signal. Therefore and A/D converter has an Anti Aliasing Filter, typically a filter starting at 45 % of the sample rate with full attenuation at 55% of the sample rate.

4. A perfect square pulse has an unlimited frequency band, however with less amplitude of the higher frequencies. (A perfect square sound pulse do not exist in nature however many type of attacks will contain parts which is close to a square pulse when analyzed in the analog domain).

5. Many claims that a sampling rate at 192 kHz/24 bit should be enough (can reproduce frequencies up to 96 kHz), however at 192 kHz sampling rate an Anti Aliasing Filter is still needed.

6. At DXD 352.8 kHz/24 bit (or 384 kHz) an anti aliasing filter is not needed since the frequencies at more than 176.4 kHz are very weak by nature.

7. A downsides of the anti aliasing filter is that some energy is lost in pre/post ringing. A smooth filter will give a better impulse response a less ringing than a stiff filter.

8. When analyzing a 3us perfect pulse we can reproduce 49% of the amplitude at 192 kHz and 88 % of the amplitude at 352.8 kHz (due to the lack of anti aliasing filter and the wider frequency band).

9. The impulse response is very important, since the brain is using the small differences in time from one ear to the other ears in order to re-calculate an image of the room.

Therefore a digital recording at 352.8 kHz (DXD) is sounding real analog. You are able to capture the ambience around the instruments at 352.8 kHz.
192 kHz, 96 kHz and 44.1 kHz/24 bit are all sounding digital. Of course the higher resolution is better that the lower resolution, but these formats are all sounding digital.

10. DSD is a one bit format (SACD format) and do not have an anti aliasing filter. It has a band wide up to 1.3 MHz and can therefore reproduce the amplitude of a perfect pulse 100%.

11. The downsides of DSD is that the format can not be edited since it is a 1 bit format, and the quantizes noise of the format is significant (-80 dBfs without noise shapers)

12. With a noise shaper we have been able to move some of the noise to a higher frequency band; however the energy will always be there. We can keep the noise below -120dBfs up to 24 kHz but then the noise will increase. At 100 kHz we have -22dBfs noise in our DSD implementation.

13. If you need to edit a DSD file you have to convert it to some kind of multibit format.
When you then again want the DSD format you will ad quantizes noise once again.

14. Therefore DSD (SACD) is a consumer format. It is very good if you only ad quantizes noise once, due to the perfect impulse response, but it should not be used for production.

Best regards,

Peter

[Sinewave]

HF noise caveat just negative propaganda?

That may be true , because a lot of people have just read papers about DSD and it's HF noise but most have never heard a master DSD recording (different from the finished SACD, ) to figure out if you can hear any HF noise, and the truth is you won't hear it, you can see it if you use those Spectra -whatever devices that stereophile and EMM labs uses, but it's not audible.

11. The downsides of DSD is that the format can not be edited since it is a 1 bit format, and the quantizes noise of the format is significant (-80 dBfs without noise shapers)

not true anymore the new Genex editing software and DSP hardware are capable of 1 bit editing, game over.

[Plush]

Originally Posted by Sinewave

That may be true , because a lot of people have just read papers about DSD and it's HF noise but most have never heard a master DSD recording (different from the finished SACD, ) to figure out if you can hear any HF noise, and the truth is you won't hear it, you can see it if you use those Spectra -whatever devices that stereophile and EMM labs uses, but it's not audible.


not true anymore the new Genex editing software and DSP hardware are capable of 1 bit editing, game over.

Genex?? Nonsense! Laughable!

Game Over??---Sir, not by a long shot!

[Sinewave]

Genex?? Nonsense! Laughable!

Game Over??---Sir, not by a long shot!

Heeeyyyyy Plush LOL i knew that it would not of been long to get you to come out and play, i set my trap very carefully, i knew you could'nt resist, i just had to say the words DSD and you were ready to join the Fray LOL.

So how are ya ?,I guess you're not a big Genex fan huh, and why not game over ? .

[crna59]

Originally Posted by Sinewave

So how are ya ?,I guess you're not a big Genex fan huh, and why not game over ? .

Genex lies about order shipments and delivery times. Why the hell would you believe anything about their DSD Math?? They can't even add small #'s. (ie:.. we'll ship it out in 3 days!)
I can't find ANYTHING explaining this "elusive" system they claim to have. They say it exists.. but???

Regards,
Bruce

[Baithak]

Just thought I would join in the bitch fest re.Genex. After much, much thought I bought a 9000 six months ago at which point I was assured, ASSURED, by Kevin that the editor would be available in a matter of days. Suffice it to say that I have long since stopped even writing to them about it.

Add to the very sloppy and incomplete manual, the recorder shipping without the analog out cables (for which I had to make many, many calls and pleas) and I am just petrified of a day when I will need service for my machine.

So I have the Genex, I record to it, it sounds good but for edit anything I have to go either PCM or reconvert via the analog outs from DSD. AAargh.

Baithak

[Sinewave]

Well ok i get it about the genex thing , but this is a post about the korg DSD machines so lets get back on topic. To pete moshay have you done any more recording with the korg ?.

[robd]

12. With a noise shaper we have been able to move some of the noise to a higher frequency band; however the energy will always be there. We can keep the noise below -120dBfs up to 24 kHz but then the noise will increase. At 100 kHz we have -22dBfs noise in our DSD implementation.

Wow, I don't even think I can hear 100kHz. I guess I wouldn't make a very good mastering engineer, huh? I suppose that if the album's target audience is dogs, this could be a serious problem, though.

Anyway, If anyone could let me know how the MR1000 mic pres sound on battery power, that would be great. I'm mostly interested in this as a portable field rocorder, so that would make or break it for me.

[PMoshay]

Originally Posted by Sinewave

Well ok i get it about the genex thing , but this is a post about the korg DSD machines so lets get back on topic. To pete moshay have you done any more recording with the korg ?.

Yes, and they sound excellent. An exact replication of what comes out the speakers, no "this converter sounds like ......, and that converter sounds like......" in = out everytime. Imaging remains intact, balance is perfect.

[raal]

i wrote Mr. Gus Skinas who heads the Super Audio DSD Center: http://www.superaudiocenter.com

he said it was ok to post his reply on GS so here it is:

As a practical matter, we have done many 32 track DSD projects that were then mixed back to the 32 track recorder then mastered and the results, in my opinion, are far more natural sounding than anything I have heard produced in the PCM domain. So that's three generations. Also, a very large number of SACD's on the market have been mixed (or live recorded) to DSD stereo and surround, then mastered, and they are also exceptional. Of course a mastered program is a generation away from the original recording or mix, but practically it has not been a problem at all. It can be a problem if the original recordings are recorded at to low a level and have to be amplified... then some filtering may be in order, but generally it is not necessary. Of course filtering is always an option, but we seldom use it. If you have an SACD player, I can recommend some examples to listen to and give you their history. But to be frank, i don't think you will have any problem mixing to DSD and then mastering from it.

thank you Gus.

[PMoshay]

Here's a few basic screen shots of the Audiogate software exporting functions, this does not cover it all, but you'll get the idea.This is playing from the internal audio of my Macbook, files can be dragged over and played without the MR1000 being mounted if desired. Playlists can be made & saved (and on the unit too)

[raal]

WHAT ??? no 384kHz ???

kidding.

[Sinewave]

Originally Posted by PMoshay

Yes, and they sound excellent. An exact replication of what comes out the speakers, no "this converter sounds like ......, and that converter sounds like......" in = out everytime. Imaging remains intact, balance is perfect.

But ok, so this means that the recording was played back from the korg, or did you have to drag the file into your Mac then play it back through a PCM sound card for monitering ?.

[Sinewave]

Hey raal nice info from gus, sometimes i write to him also to get info regarding DSD.
So you got another answer about generation loss, so you see no problems at all.

Also, a very large number of SACD's on the market have been mixed (or live recorded) to DSD stereo and surround, then mastered,

This is how i plan to use the korg,

[PMoshay]

Originally Posted by Sinewave

But ok, so this means that the recording was played back from the korg, or did you have to drag the file into your Mac then play it back through a PCM sound card for monitering ?.

You can play it back from either. Once the MR1000 is mounted on the computer though, it goes into "drive mode" so you can not play back from the MR1000 while it is mounted. Once you unmount it, you can play as normal.

I just copy the newly recorded files to my internal HD, unmount, then use Audiogate to do the conversions or playback.

[PMoshay]

The real beauty of DSD is it kinda ends the "converter debate".
As much as i like my Apogee's and Sony as converters, i don't want to change the sound at the last minute (on encode or decode of PCM).
I want to hear back exactly what i put in everytime & everywhere i go. DSD is working out to be the perfect solution as well a a forward thinking archival solution.

PCM is good, its just old and a bit outdated by todays computing standards and we can use much better technology now that it is becoming affordable for the masses.

Will the consumer care?......... that's up to what WE tell them. or we can wait for Apple or Microsoft to tell us where our music business is going.............

[max cooper]

Originally Posted by Sinewave

Buy it? Heck, most didn't even know what it was. I'll never forget going to a CD superstore and asking where their SACDs were. The employee thought SACD was a rap group.

That's nothing. I went into Waterloo Records in Austin and asked if they had a section for SACD's.

They pointed me towards a bin full of Texas artists.

The guy thought I was looking for CD's by San Antonio artists.

On further quizzing, I realized he'd never heard of SACD's.

They did have a section with about seven titles in it.

[Ribbonmicguy]

Peter,

Will this be shown at the Namm show?

[Sinewave]

On further quizzing, I realized he'd never heard of SACD's.

That's maybe because there are some artist who are actually making SACD's , but who for whatever reason do not put the SACD logo on the outside of thier jewel case, the only time you may know it's an SACD is in the liner notes or the DSD logo on the disc.

Will the consumer care?......... that's up to what WE tell them. or we can wait for Apple or Microsoft to tell us where our music business is going.............

HELL NO............................ to MS and Apple

[PMoshay]

Originally Posted by Ribbonmicguy

Peter,

Will this be shown at the Namm show?

I'm pretty sure they will. I have not seen the MR-1 (smaller unit) yet. I can't make it to the NAMM show, so if you all get your hands on one, let me know how you like it.
I am already addicted to this MR1000/DSD recording, im sure now i want the MR-1, or as i like to call it DSD iPod........or iPod for Audiofiles.

The future of quality audio just might have a chance now, we will see.

I guess since Sony seemed to drop the ball on SACD, maybe the inventor of the technology (who he & his team at Waseda University) decided the best way to try to kick start the format again was to get it a price point where the majority of the people who make records can buy it .......... then you have a influx of available DSD music for consumers to buy & enjoy.

Hell, if i'm gonna record a DSD/SACD, you can be dam sure i'm gonna try to release it as a SACD........if that happens x10,000....... we might have a chance of it happening.
No product=no future
Apple did it, iPods = iTunes downloads.

[raal]

thanks for all the info PMoshay.

some questions:

is it possible to send a DSD file to an ME so he can import it to whatever DSD machine he has, or does the file have to be played back on the MR-1000?

any way to use other DSD converters with the MR-1000? i don't think so but just to make sure. haven't heard the Tascam DVRA 1000 yet, but here on GS some have said it sounds very close to the original source but not identical. you say it sounds identical on the Korg, so it seems the audio path is better quality. have you heard the Tascam box and what are you impressions?

and does the MR-1 have the same quality audio path and converters as the MR-1000?

also, have you tried recording to DSD and converting to PCM, then recording direct to PCM and compared? any audible differences?

if these have already been answered i apologize. thank you in advance.

[PMoshay]

Originally Posted by raal

thanks for all the info PMoshay.

some questions:

is it possible to send a DSD file to an ME so he can import it to whatever DSD machine he has, or does the file have to be played back on the MR-1000?

any way to use other DSD converters with the MR-1000? i don't think so but just to make sure. haven't heard the Tascam DVRA 1000 yet, but here on GS some have said it sounds very close to the original source but not identical. you say it sounds identical on the Korg, so it seems the audio path is better quality. have you heard the Tascam box and what are you impressions?

and does the MR-1 have the same quality audio path and converters as the MR-1000?

also, have you tried recording to DSD and converting to PCM, then recording direct to PCM and compared? any audible differences?

if these have already been answered i apologize. thank you in advance.

You can play the files on other compatible units that handle DSD of course.
The units will ship with lots of recordings we did using the MR1000, take a listen to a unit and the various types of recordings, classical, folk, acoustic, field, pop, etc. I have not listened or tried the Tascam unit, so i have not opinion on it.
At this point, i think you all should be able to get to audition one soon as i know they are on their way (they may already be here). You'll be able to hear with your own ears if this is for you......