Korg MR-1000 / 1bit-5.8MHz DSD portable recorder

[tsvisser]

Not compatible with SPDIF inputs...

If your working with Pryamix or Sonoma, you can simply import the file. If you want to capture live DSD conversion, you will need to have the appropriate interface and if using additional outboard gear, will need the appropriate copper or optical DSD digital connections. Pyramix (DAD), Mytek, Sonoma, EMM Labs, Prism, Genex, AMS Neve, are a few popular places to start looking at converters and interfaces.

[iomegaman]

Originally Posted by tsvisser

Not compatible with SPDIF inputs...

If your working with Pryamix or Sonoma, you can simply import the file. If you want to capture live DSD conversion, you will need to have the appropriate interface and if using additional outboard gear, will need the appropriate copper or optical DSD digital connections. Pyramix (DAD), Mytek, Sonoma, EMM Labs, Prism, Genex, AMS Neve, are a few popular places to start looking at converters and interfaces.

Thanks I have the appropriate converters (A/D D/A two separate outboard devices), just don't know how to get that stuff into the DAW for editing, if its even possible.

My converters dump spdif and AES(granted they are beta devices still incredible quality.

Where is the limits on spdif in the AES standard?

[tsvisser]

Originally Posted by iomegaman

Thanks I have the appropriate converters (A/D D/A two separate outboard devices), just don't know how to get that stuff into the DAW for editing, if its even possible.

My converters dump spdif and AES(granted they are beta devices still incredible quality.

Where is the limits on spdif in the AES standard?

what DAW are you using?

[VukOnCrack]

Interesting with the MR-2000. Anyone know

a) price,
b) release date,
c) if transports can be synched?

If the price point for each is similar to the MR-1000 and you can link two or more together, I know what I'll likely spend some cash on.

[iomegaman]

Originally Posted by tsvisser

what DAW are you using?

Well I was looking at nextstage afc, we are currently waiting for Sonar 8 upgrade which will do 384khz.

I was wanting to get ahead of the curve a bit and learn DSD without spending part of my "Congressional Bailout Budget" on hardware...

The Korg stuff is definitely on our "To buy" list, although I'm leaning to the newer korg rack mount...still even the m-1 is no stick in the mud, really nice stuff here.

[Baithak]

Originally Posted by VukOnCrack

Interesting with the MR-2000. Anyone know

a) price,
b) release date,
c) if transports can be synched?

If the price point for each is similar to the MR-1000 and you can link two or more together, I know what I'll likely spend some cash on.

Hi Vuk: just saw the 2000 at the AES show where they had four of them linked
together and recording 8 tracks in a "beta" demo. So yes, there is a way sync them
and use as a virtual multitrack. The machines look nice but I did not get a chance to
hear them or get info on price/release dates. Maybe tomorrow ...

Baithak

[VukOnCrack]

Thanks, Baithak.

I would appreciate any more info you may be able to gleam from around the booth.

Sounds promising thus far!

[Empiria]

About price. I found a store in Europe that sells it for 1300 Euro. I may guess it'll be around $1300 in the US. I am a happy user of MR-1000 machine, and would really aprreciate 8-track version.

[Baithak]

As promised here is some more info I got from the Korg reps:

1. Machine will be released at the end of October.

2. Retail price is USD 2000.

3. The multiple machine sync works in the DSD mode, where the SPDIF port is not utilized; so this is used to sync multiple machines in a daisy chain (latency issues? Sample accuracy??). Even this functionality is not ready and will NOT ship with the first version of the machine.

4. In PCM mode, the SPDIF port will provide the digital signal on output i.e. the machine operates as a converter; so you can use it to send the stream to another backup recorder.

5. Version 1.5 of Audiogate is out which has a bunch of upgrades: ability to read more types of files, ability to split stereo files into mono files etc.

Baithak

[bobkeiser@ieee.o]

Looks like a nice machine!

I'll be sticking with the 1000 for portable use...the mic pres are surprisingly good.

Ah, but I could pick up a 2000 for when I use outboard pres...

[TMI]

The Korg link for this product is dead.

Is there a new link?

Originally Posted by PMoshay

I have been working with Korg on this new 1bit recorder that has been designed by Koji Oishi under the supervision of Dr. Yoshio Yamasaki at Waseda University in Japan.
Dr. Yoshio Yamasaki invented 1bit recording and licensed the technology to Sony (who does not give him credit for it). This new recorder will be a milestone for the recording studio, the MR-1000 will most likely retail for under $799.
The MR-1000 records at 5.8MHz (2x the rate of SACD) and comes with software (Audiogate) for Mac & PC to transfer files to your computer and convert to PCM.
At the recent AES show, a informal listening test of the prototype unit had high end mastering engineers & audiophiles floored, and i can vouch for that as i have been using it for a few months now, it sounds fantastic!

Before you say "nobody cares about SACD or 1bit", please read the explanation of why 1bit recording sounds better and is a much more accurate & future proof recording & archival technology. Once you understand what 1bit is, it will all make sense why it is a smart move forward.

Read this explanation of it:
1bit Explained

Korg Site Info:
MR-1000

[DSD_Mastering]

HERE...


Regards,

[VukOnCrack]

Here's a question I haven't seen asked yet.

When using the MR-1000 connected to a computer via USB, I believe it mounts as a drive, but may it also appear as an interface so you can use the PCM converters as you would any other standard interface device? I figure "no", but thought it worth asking about anyway since it would make quite a compact travel setup for capture and editing. Something worth supporting, Korg?

[Nu-tra]

I nub mine!

[Shadow_7]

Originally Posted by VukOnCrack

Here's a question I haven't seen asked yet.

When using the MR-1000 connected to a computer via USB, I believe it mounts as a drive.....

It has been asked. And NO is the answer. When attached, you have to put it into USB mode. Where it acts like a stand alone USB harddisk, and only a harddisk.

But it would be nice to have one that doubles as a PC soundcard. Some of the vaio laptops supposedly have DSD capable soundcards these days. So perhaps not that critical.

[MaxEars]

Hi all

I have few questions relating to the Korg units

I'm thinking of buying two MR1000s with the main intention of surround recording some general nature sounds in a remote location. Having been to this area before (West Papua) I know how wonderfully quiet it can be ... other than the sounds of birds and other forest creatures.

I wish to do 4-channel surround recordings.and am thinking to buy another Rode NT4 stereo and basically set the two stereo mikes up above and below each other... ... input directly to the MR1000s' balanced mic ins

I know the units cannot sync... I'm wondering if anyone has a an estimate of how much time drift there might be over a 2 hour recording for example.... there will some degree of time difference ... but of any real significance considering the application? I know this has been asked before but I didn't see any answers

Also I appreciate the info about the Shure attenuators and Naiant studio stuff. I'm wondering how different or better/worse it would be to use a battery powered preamp, such as Naiant makes, into the Line Ins rather than use the onboard pres.

I assume the onboard pres of the MR1000 are somewhat better than those of the MR1. Yet, in an article about the units, the Japanese designer said that they were the same exactly.... I thought that's what he said .... is this the case? The Korg website states that for the MR1000 the mic input has 4.5 k Ohm impedance and 68 k Ohm line input impedance... yet the MR1 has just one input impedance of 10k Ohm ...I don't understand this bit properly... does the MR1 have a shared mic/line circuit?... ...does the MR1000 have superior mic pres? Or would each unit (MR1000 and MR1) sound pretty much the same at the regular 2.8Mhz?

On the subject of mics i'd appreciate any thoughts on the appropriateness of the NT4... i did see one poster here a while back obviously very experienced with a number of recommended mics including this one. Any insight into when these various mics are best used or not would be very welcome. I've been doing the odd nature recordings for a number of years at a fun level. .....(I work in audio.... mostly mixing and surround).... and have used mostly DAT machines.. but do not have experience with any outdoor specific mics. I do have a reasonable collection of studio mics

Also wondering how difficult it would be to put the mics on a boom into the sea.... is it possible to jury-rig a waterproof mic system (not for deep water) or does one have to go for dedicated hydrophone? mics?

Sorry if this isn't exactly the right place to post all these questions but it seems there are a lot of great audiophiles here on this thread and my first and main question is regarding the clock drift between 2 units ..... am I looking for trouble trying to wild sync 2 MR1000s (or one MR1 and one MR1000) for field recordings?

Thanks very much for your thoughts

Max

[tsvisser]

I don't know what the drift is, but even if it is close to immeasurable, the fact that there will be a small amount of drift, means that you will have phase relationship problems between channels that are on different units. You are better off looking at the Korg MR-2000 which will have some synching options in the future, once the firmware passes its pre-release state.

If you don't need DSD, there are lots of 4+ channel field recorders to choose from.

[RickZ]

I don't think the drift is all that much. I recently recorded an organ recital with one of my MR-1000's, and a Sony Digital Video Camera. The pieces were no longer than 10 minutes each, much less than what you're talking about, but it was pretty easy to line up the audio between the two sources. I used the MR-1000 audio for the front audio, the camera audio for surround, no LFE or Center Channel, rendered to Dolby Digital 5.1 by Vegas Pro, in import to DVD Architect to create DVD-R. I thought it sounded pretty good, artist was pleased. The audio from the camera was auto-levelled, so pretty crappy, but it gave an interesting effect on quieter parts, in that the surround came out a bit. After many years of strictly audio, I have to say it's pretty entertaining to watch someone play these complicated pieces, like Bach Trio Sonata's and Vierne Final from one of his organ symphonies. I had no idea how much back and forth on the 3 manuals, and swell changes were needed, such repertoire being well beyond my humble skills as a church organist/choir director.

Sorry this rambled, er drifted . .
Best regards,
Rick Z

[videoteque]

If you don't need DSD, there are lots of 4+ channel field recorders to choose from.

Max, don't complicate your life if you are going into the jungle. Get a 4-track recorder and be done with it!

This Korg units are wonderful 2-track recorders, we are all waiting they make a 4-track or even better an 8-track DSD recorder!!!

[MaxEars]

Thanks for your replies

The MR2000 is not an option as I will need DC power out there in the middle of wherever

My feeling is that a small amount of drift isn't going to be a problem in a recording of this type... we're not talking about miking a drum kit where any drift definitely would be problematic. My plan is to just set up a couple of stands with the two mics each into an MR at which point we just walk away and come back in a couple of hours.

We won't be trekking far so the lugging is not an issue and it's not like I need to be able to walk around while recording.

A wood clap at the initiation of recording would enable the files to be lined up later in the computer. Another clap at the end would indicate how far we've drifted. Of course this is the information i am hoping someone might be able to provide if they've already tried this type of syncing.

Also, from as much as I have read and heard, I do believe I will get great recordings with these units.... better than any other reasonably priced alternative. And that is really what I'm trying to do... get really nice fidelity. I really want to hear as much silence as possible (interspersed with some sounds of life ....a bird here, a couple of tweets there) .. if that doesn't sound overly optimistic...
http://www.gearslutz.com/board/image...es/wiggle2.gif

[tsvisser]

Here is an important distinction to make - what type of 4 channel surround will you be using? If you were doing an M-S, X-Y, ORTF, etc... recording with 2 independent mono recorders, if there was a drift of .05 seconds, the relative phase of the channels would be off and therefore the stereo field would collapse. Assuming that the recorders are more or less synched, it comes down to whether or not you can get your proper sound field.

When I do 4 channel surround recordings, I do M-S-M or double M-S. In this case, I decode a double matrix of front facing and rear facing M-S setups. I simply would not be able to do this with 2 separate recorders that were not locked at a sample level. If, on the other hand, you have a front facing ORTF and a rear facing X-Y, this could conceivably be done with 2 independent recorders, as long as they are more or less in synch. You can obviously detect lead or lag on 1 pair compared to the other and make minor modifications in post as necessary.

[MaxEars]

That is very thought-provoking tsvisser. Many thanks

As my experience with outdoor stereo micing is limited to XY (I did have an old Sony M/S) I have just done a crash course ORTF 101 by reading a paper by Michael Williams. http://www.rycote.com/assets/documen...nic%20Zoom.pdf Very interesting indeed. Will definitely put this to use in the studio.

In considering mic type and placement options in the context of an outdoor surround recording ...

I am in a bit of a rush to work out what gear I'm going to need to buy for this trip so any apologies in advance. It's great to be here.... thanks a lot

I believe i am generally trying to record a Stereo Recording angle of + - 90 degrees. The front setup wants to capture 180 degrees and equally so does the back setup. From the chart on cardioid performance in relation to distance and angle between mics it would seem that the NT4 would give about that (90 degrees plus minus) with an angular distortion rating of around 6 ...so somewhat open (wide?) in the centre and less directional definition to the sides .

If so, then when playing back on surround speaker how does this translate to the desire to have the images appear to be 180 degrees wide whilst trying to maintain relatively even directionality? At this point would a widener unit or plug (Vitalizer stereo enhance or Waves S1 etc) work well to take the side components out further?

You suggest this side-weighted single point XY image would work well for the Rears .. i guess because they are already wider due to their placement?

And/or, as mono compatibility is not an issue and there would be no problems with early reflections, we could try an ORTF setup which would give, by accounts, a wider sense than the XY. Your suggestion is to use this for the fronts

i know the answer to all my unknowns is to try them .. and I wish to ....I can see there are many approaches to the problem of trying to translate a recorded stereo angle image to the speaker placements of 5.1.

I'm happy to buy some other mics for this application if there are any suggestions .... I can find some suggested mics on an earlier post on this thread and have a think about them but I have no way to try anything out before buying ... naturally I would really welcome your experienced opinions

just to keep this still on thread I'd also still love to hear about the possible differences in the mic pres of the MR1 and MR1000 .. also any indication of how much time drift there might be between two units ... (and I'm hoping that you feel the amount of drift between front and rear won't spoil gently paced natural recordings ... i don't expect much cicada/cricket type continuous HF sounds )

Certainly the flexibility of the ORTF setup is very appealing ..... now which mikes?

Many thanks to you all

Max

[David Rick]

Max,

You have an interesting gig and this is the perfect forum in which to ask for advice , BUT you've hidden your questions at the bottom of a giant thread on Korg DSD machines. May I humbly suggest that you start a new thread with a title something like "Nature recordings in Surround"?

My own opinion is that these Korg decks are cool (a colleague has one), but completely ill-suited for surround work. Yeah, we've all had to line up stuff with wild clocking every once in a while, but I certainly would never plan this situation on purpose. Really, you'll have enough work to do processing this material without messing around with problems like that.

My take on the Rode NT4 is that it's a mediocre-sounding and inflexible stereo mic which is of very little utility in building a useful surround array. It's main virtue is that you needn't feel too bad if it gets rained on or dumped out of a canoe. But before recommending anything else, I need you to think what kind of sonic result you're really trying to achieve.

In which parts of the sonic "circle" (if any) do you need precise imaging of discrete elements? Does it matter that this imaging correspond to the actual source angles, or will the listener not be able to tell the difference? In which parts of the sonic "circle" do you simply need decorrelated sound? Do you need stable imaging between speakers? Will any of this be steered to the center speaker, or must that be reserved for dialog? Will listeners be in a fixed orientation (e.g. watching a screen) or will they be free to move around (as in a museum exhibit)? If you had height information, could you use it? The answers to these questions will help determine what kind of microphone setup to use.

As for the deck: If it were me, I'd just buy a Sound Devices 744T and a battery-powered stereo preamp from Sound Devices or Grace Designs. If I couldn't afford a 744T, I'd buy one anyway and sell it later. Don't kid yourself that DSD is of any importance in this application. (Your post production and delivery will all be in PCM anyway.) What's important is that your deck actually work when you hit "record". Everything else is gravy.

David L. Rick
Seventh String Recording

[MaxEars]

Thanks very much David

You're right ... I've been wanting to try DSD sound for these recordings ... I needed to get some feedback on my thought processes... very helpful all...

Fundamentally they (MRs) would not be the right tools for the job .... at this time there is no 4 track ... so get real ... and forget it... for now! ( : As you say any unit I buy now could be sold later .... but i usually don't sell gear ( :

I do love SACD and DSD and wold like to support these formats ... hopefully the MRs are a great success and we can look forward to multi-channel portable units some time in the future

I'll do as you suggest and move my further enquiries to a new thread ... you have given me much to consider .... with the 788T a fifth mike could be used ...

Best regards and thanks for your thoughtful replies

Max

[Shadow_7]

Originally Posted by MaxEars

The MR2000 is not an option as I will need DC power out there in the middle of wherever

There are a number of power options if you need power in the middle of wherever. Larger batteries that plug directly into the devices DC port. And battery plus inverter options to supply A/C power. Or even a distant generator. They can be fairly small and somewhat quiet these days.

While there may not be much drift between two units, it adds a step in post. Which is one more opportunity to get it wrong. And any drift may cause phase issues and/or intonation issues that may not have existed in the source. Plus any sort of clap for alignment has a negative affect if recording wildlife. The animals run away, the birds stop chirping, and the crickets take a pause.

[bobkeiser@ieee.o]

I think you should get a pair (of MR-1000s) and try it! Don't let the naysayers hold you back.

[Plush]

You may indeed have some fun and some success with using two 1000 machines. However, your success will not come from keeping them in sync or from any added "quality" from dsd recording. They will not stay in synch.

The way one keeps 2 stereo machines in synch is with SMPTE time code and these machines do not have time code. As for the dsd, by the time you convert the Korg dsd recording to pcm with the included Audiogate software, there will not be much difference between the dsd and the pcm.

If you require an excellent machine for multitrack, I am suggesting you buy a Nagra 6 (6 channel) machine made in Switzerland or other machine like the Sound Devices 4 channel made in Wisconsin.