Korg MR-1000 / 1bit-5.8MHz DSD portable recorder

[PMoshay]

Originally Posted by Duardo

Right, but who's still using 1-bit converters on the front end?

-Duardo

most converter designs have a 1bit converter BEFORE the filter then->Decimation filter-> convert to PCM. The reason you need a filter & decimation filter before the encoding is to conform to PCM. 1bit eliminates the filter & decimation filter need.
1bit could have been used a long time ago, but storage & data bus speeds were a issue for some time, so not much attention was spent on it.

The simple way to explain it is:

PCM adds a filter & decimation filter before and after the encoding(AD & DA).

1bit only adds a analog filter on the decoding just so it does not fry your speaker & amp.

1bit recording has less influence on the sound before and after its recorded
PCM - the AD and DA can very much effect the sound before and after. (similar to how a mic pre or console might affect your sound).

I don't think most of the public will care all that much, but our job is to produce the best quality we can and i know most of you all work your tails off (and spend lots of money too) to get a great end product. Just because iPods are popular, does not mean we have to go get a lobotomy.

If respected audio people don't try, who will?

[T.RayBullard]

I dont care about science and electronic theory in the least..I simply listen...and from listening.. DSD is amazing to these ears.especially for acoustic recording in real time and real spaces.....I hope it sticks around and takes off.

[T.RayBullard]

here is what the Head Engineer at Philips had to say about DSD VS PCM

new Korg portable DSD recorders..

new Korg portable DSD recorders..

[Plush]

T.Ray---both very good reads and good references.
Thank you for posting them.

The idea to use a filter (once) on PCM before final playback is critical and has been used for decades here.

It really does work!

Once Sony abandoned DSD and SACD, the time to adopt was over.

Korg can be auditioned, heard and then reported on here.
High quality (relatively expensive) analog front end in one's converter is required for any good digital sound. Maybe it will have it.

Made in China????

[robd]

It sounds interesting. If the pres are good and it's under about 1k, I would definitely get one. Can the pres be bypassed?

[mr.gefell]

Originally Posted by Plush

Made in China????

actually DSD and SACD are standard in China ..weird and twisted but true.

[Sinewave]

Originally Posted by robd

It sounds interesting. If the pres are good and it's under about 1k, I would definitely get one. Can the pres be bypassed?

It has no mic pres of it's own only analog inputs and outputs , so you willl have to provide your own mic pres which is what you want right ?. And it has the USB ports for connecting to your computer.

[robd]

from the website:

The table-top MR-1000 includes combination XLR/ 1/4" input connectors with top quality microphone preamps, phantom power and built-in limiting.

Unless I'm missing something, this would seem to indicate that it has preamps. I don't really care much aobout the whole 1-bit thing, but, if the pres are nice (or bypassable), I will probably get one as a field recorder.

[Sinewave]

Originally Posted by robd

from the website:


Unless I'm missing something, this would seem to indicate that it has preamps. I don't really care much aobout the whole 1-bit thing, but, if the pres are nice (or bypassable), I will probably get one as a field recorder.

Ok my bad i seem to have gotten it mixed up with the Tascam, sorry.

[5point1]

Hi from London (U.K.)

Korg's MR-1000 1-bit recorder is a fascinating concept, but one that is possibly just a little too late.
Call me a cynic if you wish, but way back in the early 1980's when music C.D.'s first hit the retailers shelves, many of you may vaguely recall Philips evangelical marketing boast, proudly claiming ”Perfect sound forever”. Well personally I'd insist on a partial refund, because 'forever' certainly proved to be short-lived !
But seriously, judging by the vast numbers of consumers who have readily adopted either Mp3 or similar compression formats for the convenience of cramming large portions of their collection of C.D.'s or downloads onto portable devices, my main question is.....how many of them are genuinely concerned by the recorded quality of the music that they listen to? Answers on a USB flash drive !
In addition, I'd dearly love to know what percentage of these consumers either a) already have or b) are seriously intent on spending serious amounts of money on a really good domestic 5.1 surround system, even assuming that they have sufficient space in which to install and set it up correctly in a home environment ?
I'm sure that the majority of modern professional recording studios are probably run by extremely talented engineers who care passionately about what they do. Their facilities are invariably equipped with incredible amounts of esoteric equipment and good acoustics in which to faithfully capture performances of music. Their prime objective is sound quality.
In my opinion, what has thus-far held back mass acceptance of SACD or DVDA in the recording industry is the sheer cost of the investment involved, with the exception of those with bottomless-pockets.
The uncomfortable reality of the situation is that the market is almost totally driven by the need of those giant manufacturing corporations to recoup the huge financial investments that they have made in researching, producing and promoting their product, whilst attempting to drive their immediate competitors out of business.
However, if C.D.'s and Mp3's are generally accepted as good enough by vast swathes of the population, what on earth is the point of the rest of us mere mortals sinking so much money into a format which is at best a minority interest. I believe that the success of SACD and DVD-A in Europe is fatally sealed, with Blu-ray and HD-DVD literally almost upon us. Somehow, I feel yet another Betamax vs VHS war looming, but bear in mind that although Betamax was technically superior to VHS, it didn't win out in the end !
If the MR-1000 were a multichannel device, it would undoubtedly hold more interest to a wider professional audience, but with a niggardly 20Gb hard drive on board, I can't quite see it reaching it's anticipated potential. I seriously wish it every success, but somehow I have my doubts.

[Killahurts]

Originally Posted by 5point1

However, if C.D.'s and Mp3's are generally accepted as good enough by vast swathes of the population, what on earth is the point of the rest of us mere mortals sinking so much money into a format which is at best a minority interest.

It's my job to get everything sounding as good as possible, on the best gear I can afford, before it leaves my shop. After it's out there, I have no control of the playback.

But I'm certainly not going to let consumer formats drive my quality standard.

[PMoshay]

The word from Japan is that production units will be available near mid Feb. for purchase at dealers

[klaukholm]

Originally Posted by Lynn Fuston

But don't confuse SACD and DSD. I think that DSD, or DXD, are both viable options still for master recording and, at least to my ear, offer advantages over PCM.

DXD is PCM, 384/32. DSD has only two flavours, 128FS and 256FS.
I do not see why one would use DXD for master recording.

[camitchell]

Originally Posted by PMoshay

Lets face it, the music industry doesnt really keep up like the movie, TV, sports or video games (all going or are now HD). Nobody carries the flag for us, not even NARAS.... Where's the audio education to the consumer? The consumer does not care, because they don't even know they have a choice besides CD or MP3 or AAC.
I can go into Best Buy and see a HDTV side by side with a regular TV. Not to mention that they post the specs/quality difference right next to it. I'm not sure how much the public will care about HD audio, but when you pay the same price ($1 for a CD track or $1 for a AAC 128k) shouldn't we mention it to them that one is better than the other?

We have a winner! You hit the nail right on the head. The average consumer has never exprienced high quality audio reproduction.... and I would say at least half the members of this board have not either. It's a shame because it's an impressive experience.

Consumers don't hear half of what goes on in a mix due to inferior playback. It's no wonder why the industry is margianlized. The only thing left for the consumer to latch onto is looks, style, hair and clothes.

The large consumer audio maunfacters benefit from the fact that is free media floating around (mp3, copying cds, etc) so as to drive sales. To look to them for copy protection is a bit wishful.

And as you said, this is where the industry trade groups have failed miserably. There is no consumer edcucation whatsoever on the mainstream consumer level.... (Best Buy, Circuit City, etc) but yet even 12 year olds know and have experienced the difference between HD tv and regular broadcast.

As example, people lust after and buy $1000+ clothes dryers now and we can't get them to pay more than $200 a pair speakers?

Sorry to get off topic but I think it's an important point to gear like this

[PMoshay]

We got a few production units from Japan this week and will be running final tests and evaluations just to make sure that the production units are as great as the beta units.
i'll keep you posted.

[No4PCs]

The niponic scientists very intelligent people.
In 30 years we will only think in sound to transfer direct to mídia.

[mpr3]

Originally Posted by mr.gefell

actually DSD and SACD are standard in China ..weird and twisted but true.

Who cares about China anyway?

They only have: 1.3 billion people, the fastest growing economy on the planet, a socialized music and video distribution network, and an increasingly aware pop culture that is rapidly exploring 'western entertainment'.

[dlmorley]

Originally Posted by camitchell

As example, people lust after and buy $1000+ clothes dryers now and we can't get them to pay more than $200 a pair speakers?

Sorry to get off topic but I think it's an important point to gear like this

Totally agree.
I think 1 plug-in in my system costs more than what most people spend on their "hi-fi" these days..
You also have people who spend $17,500 dollars on a system and listen to Chris De Burgh in all it's glory..

Ultimately I guess it is pride in what we do that makes us lust after and buy expensive gear. Probably the most valid reason I guess.

btw: has anyone heard this unit yet???

[PMoshay]

I used the test 1st production unit last night at the New Years Eve NY Times Square Event. I recorded the crowd countdowns (6) during the evening using a AT825 Stereo mic directly into the mic pre's of the MR-1000. Fantastic, flawless sound with lots of headroom. I wanted to record more stuff, but since i was working i did not have time to change around the setup.
The unit was left on for 12 hours in rec. standby (on ac power) and put into record for the countdowns, the unit preformed perfectly.
I've listened back to some of the recordings done by the Japanese that were on the unit when i got it...... they also sounded incredible.

More info to come as i test more.

[Sinewave]

If i wanted to use a different mic pre with the Unit, would i be able to ?.

[Plush]

Right on, Moshay!
thank you for your testing--please keep sending your reports.

[PMoshay]

Originally Posted by Sinewave

If i wanted to use a different mic pre with the Unit, would i be able to ?.

Sure, just come line in either balanced or un-balanced.

[dlmorley]

Originally Posted by studio1117

I personally would love to have on of the new DSD recorders from KORG. I want the best 2 track mastering available if possible. Granted I'm not Bob Ludwig etc, but I think there's room in my studio for a superior (over pcm) 2 track tool. It's a cheap way to upgrade your 2 tracks. Why would this be a dead format? You can save better and fold down to your PCM format and then if the industry ever makes listening to music fun again you'll have a better format when people want to hear your music on SACD.
For heavens sake kids it's only $799 my first Panasonic 3700 was like $1800
Aaron Householter
www.studio1117.us

Exactly how I see it

[Albert]

I recently was in the market for a small handheld digital recorder. I read the information linked to above, and also anything else I could find out about the Korg recorders. They seem like very appealing devices, but I went with another product for a simple reason: external computer software is required in order to get the 1bit data in the Korg into a format usable by any current DAW or digital device.

What's the problem with that? Well, I know from experience that Korg will drop support for poor selling products fairly quickly, and that includes support/updates of any related software. I do not want to have to depend on "included Mac/PC software" to be able to use this device and have it communicate with the rest of the world.

So ultimately, all the white papers in the world couldn't convince me to buy hardware that makes recordings that are incompatible with 99.9% of the recording world. Build the 1bit to 24/44 conversion into the unit.

[raal]

Originally Posted by studio1117

I personally would love to have on of the new DSD recorders from KORG. I want the best 2 track mastering available if possible. Granted I'm not Bob Ludwig etc, but I think there's room in my studio for a superior (over pcm) 2 track tool. It's a cheap way to upgrade your 2 tracks. Why would this be a dead format? You can save better and fold down to your PCM format and then if the industry ever makes listening to music fun again you'll have a better format when people want to hear your music on SACD.
Aaron Householter
www.studio1117.us

i wish i could agree but as i understand it DSD is most useful when mastering from analog, last in the chain (one generation). i hope i'm wrong on this, but unless you do the mastering yourself, i can't see how DSD could be a 'better' 2 track option in practical terms.

if you mix to DSD what would you master to?

[dlmorley]

Originally Posted by Albert

I recently was in the market for a small handheld digital recorder. I read the information linked to above, and also anything else I could find out about the Korg recorders. They seem like very appealing devices, but I went with another product for a simple reason: external computer software is required in order to get the 1bit data in the Korg into a format usable by any current DAW or digital device.

What's the problem with that? Well, I know from experience that Korg will drop support for poor selling products fairly quickly, and that includes support/updates of any related software. I do not want to have to depend on "included Mac/PC software" to be able to use this device and have it communicate with the rest of the world.

So ultimately, all the white papers in the world couldn't convince me to buy hardware that makes recordings that are incompatible with 99.9% of the recording world. Build the 1bit to 24/44 conversion into the unit.

I don't see the problem really. It's included software and all it has to do is convert the files to AIFF or WAV (hence it is not a "complex" program)
Are you saying at some point in the future the conversion utility may not run on your computer OS? If this is the case, which I doubt it will be for quite a while, keep an old computer.. I do this for the rare occasion I want an OS9 piece of software.

[dlmorley]

Originally Posted by raal

i wish i could agree but as i understand it DSD is most useful when mastering from analog, last in the chain (one generation). i hope i'm wrong on this, but unless you do the mastering yourself, i can't see how DSD could be a 'better' 2 track option in practical terms.

if you mix to DSD what would you master to?

Well you could give the mastering studio the DSD file.

[raal]

Originally Posted by dlmorley

Well you could give the mastering studio the DSD file.

as i understand it, more than one generation DSD and HF noise starts becoming a problem. from my very limited perspective, i don't know if a simple low pass filter can do the trick.

maybe the ME could transfer the DSD recording to 1/2" tape and go from there, but even then, if the final medium is SACD you'd need another conversion.

am i missing something? please excuse the ignorance.

[dlmorley]

Originally Posted by raal

as i understand it, more than one generation DSD and noise starts becoming a problem. from my very limited understanding, a simple low pass filter isn't going to do the trick.

maybe the ME could transfer the DSD recording to 1/2" tape and go from there, but even then, if the final medium is SACD you'd need another conversion.

am i missing something? please excuse the ignorance.

I am just presuming they work on the DSD file in say Sonic Solutions, but am I missing something too?