Korg MR-1000 / 1bit-5.8MHz DSD portable recorder

[Schaap]

Originally Posted by Remoteness

Imagine if you didn't have a solution...
Don't get me wrong, this is a smoking DSD recording device for the balloons, but the input gain structure is an issue for me.

Yes, setting the input is a critical issue. Unfortunately is the limiter unusable, soundwise IMO.

Henk

[Remoteness]

Originally Posted by Schaap

Yes, setting the input is a critical issue. Unfortunately is the limiter unusable, soundwise IMO.

Henk

Yes, it's completely unfortunate since the mic pre distorts before the limiter.

The input sensitivity is an issue to seriously address for sure.

[mr.gefell]

didn't chris busman offer mods to improve the mic input front end?

[macula]

So, does issue disappear with outboard preamps, or is is there a problem with the line inputs as well?

[macula]

Originally Posted by tnjazz

As for comparing both, I've owned both. Still miss my ULN-2, but I wasn't using it enough to justify keeping it. The ULN-2 preamps are better, BUT the overall sound is better on the Korg in DSD mode. If you compared 24/96 recorded files head-to-head you would almost certainly pick the ULN-2. .

Thanks. I have the MR-1000 now and I am enjoying the experimentation.

In your experience, how well does the superiority of the Korg sound against the ULN-2 hold after converting 5.6DSD to PCM?

[tnjazz]

Originally Posted by macula

Thanks. I have the MR-1000 now and I am enjoying the experimentation.

In your experience, how well does the superiority of the Korg sound against the ULN-2 hold after converting 5.6DSD to PCM?

You can't compare them directly, because there's no way to measure if the audible differences are due to the DSD and dithering, or the pres, or any of that. I've also never recorded anything with the Korg in DSD and the ULN at the same time and done a comparison. Never felt the need to, as they are both excellent in their own right. The only comp I ever did I ran 24/96 for both in a short test and I preferred the ULN. Those are MY ears though, and they are not necessarily trustworthy...

Just be happy with the Korg. It's a good unit.

Originally Posted by macula

So, does issue disappear with outboard preamps, or is is there a problem with the line inputs as well?

The real problem is the lack of a pad. If they'd put a 10 or 20db pad on the thing there'd be no problem with ANY mic. As it is, some mics put out so hot a signal that running your gain at 8 or 9 o'clock is just not very comforting. The line input does not have the same problem though. So outboard pres going line in are just fine.

[Plush]

I only use this machine with outboard mic amps. I know that that removes the battery only operation feature. However, it solves all the other problems with the gain staging.

No attenuator needed in line input mode.

As far as post work with the machine, I just play out of the outputs through the processing chain and re-capture DSD onto a second machine. No big deal. Sound is smooth and balls out!

I am undecided as to whether the end product is better originating in 24/96 pcm on my Nagra V or in the 5.6MHz. DSD KORG version and then converted to 24/96 in Audiogate.

[macula]

Sorry if my question is silly -- I'm jet lagged having just landed from a transatlantic flight and I have a burning question:

Do the mic preamps of the MR-1000 have transformers? I am asking because I hot-unplugged a phantom mic (only once, I swear!) and I wonder how prone the unit may be to demagnetization of the input transformer (if it has one, though I would guess this is a transformerless design?).

Thank you!

[macula]

OK, please disregard my question above. Doug Oade kindly confirmed that the MR-1000 does not use an input transformer.

Thanks.

[ghellquist]

As for comparing to other units --

1) I did run Y-cables from the output of a DAV BG2 preamp into both a MR1000 and a Sound Devices 722 for a concert recording of a symphone orchestra. Using line level inputs. The MR1000 running at 5.6M, the 722 at 96k/24. Afterwards I converted the MR1000 recording to 96k/24 and carefully adjusted gain (all done at highest selectable quality). Totally impossible to hear any difference on either headphones or speakers. (Headphones for this test was Sennheiser 650 after a Benchmark DAC. Speakers ATC SCM20 ASL Pro, same DAC).

2) Second test on a different date was having the Y-cables directly after the mics and using the inbuilt preamps. Same procedure with changes. Now a difference can be heard, but I cannot really say one or the other is better.

To me, a very good result for the less-than-half price Korg unit.

But it also shows that, to me at least, standard recording is good enough. No need to go to all the hasslw with DSD.

Gunnar

[macula]

Gearsluts and the press emphasize that the MR-1000 sounds "like analog". What do they mean by this statement? What audio features of the recorder resemble tape recordings?

I own the unit, but it being my first recorder (digital or audio), I cannot fully understand the description.

Thank you.

[Westmalle]

Originally Posted by macula

Gearsluts and the press emphasize that the MR-1000 sounds "like analog". What do they mean by this statement? What audio features of the recorder resemble tape recordings?

I own the unit, but it being my first recorder (digital or audio), I cannot fully understand the description.

Thank you.

If I do A/B comparison of the analogue (pre converter) vs the digital (24/44) sound,
there is always something different.
With the 5,6MHz DSD, there is a much smaller difference.
I also haven't heard tape recordings.

[knightrupert]

Originally Posted by ghellquist

As for comparing to other units --

1) I did run Y-cables from the output of a DAV BG2 preamp into both a MR1000 and a Sound Devices 722 for a concert recording of a symphone orchestra. Using line level inputs. The MR1000 running at 5.6M, the 722 at 96k/24. Afterwards I converted the MR1000 recording to 96k/24 and carefully adjusted gain (all done at highest selectable quality). Totally impossible to hear any difference on either headphones or speakers. (Headphones for this test was Sennheiser 650 after a Benchmark DAC. Speakers ATC SCM20 ASL Pro, same DAC).
Gunnar

Hi Gunnar, have you compared the Korg's 5.6 DSD file played back thru the Korg's line out against the SD722 24/96 file played back thru the Benchmark?

[Westmalle]

Question; Is the Mr 1000 sounding better on batteries than on AC power?

[Lynn Fuston]

Originally Posted by Westmalle

Question; Is the Mr 1000 sounding better on batteries than on AC power?

What brand of batteries?

<};^)

[Westmalle]

Originally Posted by Lynn Fuston

What brand of batteries?

<};^)

Duracells?
I never use batteries, because it is much too expensive...
But , if it would be beneficial, i would.

[hrn]

Can you get real phantom power on batteries? How many volts? Is the power enough?

Do you get the same specifications running on batteries as can be read in the tech manual?

H

[Westmalle]

Originally Posted by hrn

Can you get real phantom power on batteries? How many volts? Is the power enough?

Do you get the same specifications running on batteries as can be read in the tech manual?

H

I use the line ins, no need for 48V.

[Shadow_7]

I just started using my MR-1000 this morning. It came in the mail yesterday, but I was out of town. I'm a happy camper. Well worth the money, especially at used prices. The converters even from 44.1kHz @ 16 bit seems to dog everything I've had to this point.

I've mainly been ripping a few .wav files off of my CDs and playing them back from the Korg. Pretty nice going that route. But certainly NOT conveinent. It wont operate as a USB storage device mode while playing something. And the playlist doesn't seem to let you select an entire directory, you have to add each file/song/recording individually to the playlist.

The Korg doesn't seem to be able to fast forward through part of a song either. Which might be an issue in the field if I want to double check a certain part of a long recording. And don't have time to listen to the entire thing. Now it may be capable of some of this stuff, I have NOT read the manual. But from a trial and error exploration, it's not readilly evident how to do that. There also doesn't seem to be a left and right adjustment for the headphones. I never realized that so many of my CDs were right dominant. Or maybe the hearing in my left ear is worse than I thought. In the meantime I'm in need of a couple XLR to TRS cables so I can use my headphone preamp's monitor adjustment when playing through the monitors. I kind of wish the unit had TRS outs so I could just use what I already have.

When recording in 192kHz @ 24 bit on the Korg, it seems to all but get rid of the distance drop off trend of 48kHz @ 16 bit on my M-Audio Mobile Pre. I was even hearing the dog chew himself in the other room while recording. And the plastic bag the cables were touching when I was moving the unit. I was starting to think I was only going to be able to use my Avenson STO-2's in close mic situations. But I now stand corrected. LDC's still seem to pick up a bit more room. I look forward to using this unit as a field recorder.

[Shadow_7]

So I've been messing around with my Korg MR-1000. A clip from Cinco De Mayo about 6am-ish. When a relatively minor storm passed through. Out the front door with it only open about 60 degrees. I included the door open and close squeek in the clip.

(see new link two posts down)

I played it back later that day and Mom opened up the back door to let the dog in because she thought it was raining.

Recorded with:
Korg MR-1000 and Avenson STO-2's
With tie clip mic windscreens from Radio Shack. I really need some wind jammers or WindTech screens. But they're slightly better than nothing.

Recorded at DSF and 5.6448MHz with gain at 9 O'clock (Phantom power on, Gain on H or L(don't recall), limiter off)

Converted in Windows Vista via Audiogate to 24 bit at 44.1kHz
Edited (trimmed) and converted in Linux with Audacity to 16 bit at 44.1kHz
Converted in Linux via Lame to 160 bit mp3 layer3

---


Pros:

- Sounds great (worth the price if only for the converters)

- Very Detailed (When playing back through my Delta 44 it doesn't sound half as good as playing back from the Korg)

- Plays Mp3 files from it's harddrive


Cons:

- Only plays layer 3 mp3 files. (Must use lame, NOT toolame, twolame, or the many other converters in linux)

- Seems subject to eletrical interference. Not sure if that's the mics, the cables, the unit, or the environment. Mics, Avenson STO-2's, cables, Mogami Gold (25' Neglex 2534), unit, Korg MR-1000, environment, bricked in trailer in middle of nowhere. Basically if I step out the back door to record crickets I get a sort of AM radio static. It seems strongest near the electrical meter box, on the top-ish side of it. I also get this buzz-ish sound if I bring the MR-1000 in proximity with the cables while on battery power. I don't think I've had this issue on a power tether, not that I've tested that. Is there something about Ni-MH rechargeables that might cause this? The buzz is much more evident in the headphones if monitoring while recording. Not as much on the recordings, but it does get recorded.

- It doesn't let you select USB mode while doing anything else.

- It doesn't operate as a USB soundcard

[MBishopSFX]

Originally Posted by tnjazz

Macula, I don't think we understand exactly what you're wanting to do?

Perhaps you could clarify? I don't see why anyone would want to record to DSD, downsample to 16/88.2 (or 16/96) and then play it back ON THE KORG.

You downsample on the computer anyway, so it doesn't make any sense to copy that file back to the Korg.

BTW, I just picked up another MR-1000 yesterday. I love these boxes.

I've recorded 2.8 or 5.6 MHz DSD on the MR-1000, load to my laptop and make pcm conversions via Audiogate, and transfer the results back to MR-1000. Playback was fine with no issues other than not sounding quite as good as the original DSD source. Conversions never sound the same as the DSD source to me.

I've also transferred various pcm and DSD audio files the the MR-1000 from other sources, including SACD, and they've all played fine on the MR-1000. I've often used the MR-1000 as an easy reference playback source for setting up remote control room systems. It sure beats carrying an SACD/CD/DVD-A player to sessions! I keep a folder of my reference material on my computer and load it over to the MR-1000 for the particular session. After setup is complete, I just reformat the MR-1000 HD to free space for the session if needed.

Also, regarding mic input gain on the MR-1000 - with the gain switch set to LOW, I've had no clipping with (2) MKH-20s (no pads) in-front of a symphony orchestra.

.

[Shadow_7]

I don't normally run windows, so running audiogate isn't the prefered solution. As far as playback, I'm finding mp3 sounds nothing like wav or dsd. And the Korg only supports a few of the mp3 file types. And kind of picky at that.

The highest quality mp3 (not to imply quality) does seem to play. And isn't too degraded. Not to imply bad. It still sounds better than my laptops soundcard. Just not as good as the original DSD or WAV form. And noticeably so on the Korg.

toolame file.wav file.mp3 (doesn't play Mpeg Type-1 Layer-2)

twolame file.wav file.mp3 (doesn't play)

lame file.wav file.mp3 (Does Play Mpeg Type-1 Layer-3)

lame -b 128 -h -V 0 file.wav file.mp3 (doesn't play)

lame -b 192 -h -V 0 file.wav file.mp3 (doesn't play)

lame -b 320 -h -V 0 file.wav file.mp3 (Does Play)

Without -h -V 0 works for most bitrates. Although some CDs don't
play back perfectly. Certain sers and pops. Might be the Korg, might be the lame converter. Files that don't play show an unrecognized file type error on the Korg. Which you just don't know about until it's put on the Korg and tested. Not exactly the prefered methodology for an mp3 player. But it's designed to be a field recorder and appears to excell at that. It'd just be nice if was a bit more, the hardware for that appears to be there for all intents and purposes.

A new link to a higher quality mp3. Not to imply high quality. I used 160 on the other one because the filetypes that seemed to work were of that type. I've gotten a bit more experience with the lame converter and the Korg to do better. At costs (size). Although still better (< 25% size) compared to the original after trimmed and converted to 16 bit @ 44.1kHz.

http://home.earthlink.net/~shadow_7/thunder_320.mp3

Same as two posts up, but converted from 16 bit @ 44.1kHz to mp3 with the following:

lame -b 320 -h -V 0 file.wav file.mp3

[Mats H]

Originally Posted by Shadow_7

I don't normally run windows, so running audiogate isn't the prefered solution. As far as playback, I'm finding mp3 sounds nothing like wav or dsd. And the Korg only supports a few of the mp3 file types. And kind of picky at that.

The highest quality mp3 (not to imply quality) does seem to play. And isn't too degraded. Not to imply bad. It still sounds better than my laptops soundcard. Just not as good as the original DSD or WAV form. And noticeably so on the Korg.

toolame file.wav file.mp3 (doesn't play Mpeg Type-1 Layer-2)

twolame file.wav file.mp3 (doesn't play)

lame file.wav file.mp3 (Does Play Mpeg Type-1 Layer-3)

lame -b 128 -h -V 0 file.wav file.mp3 (doesn't play)

lame -b 192 -h -V 0 file.wav file.mp3 (doesn't play)

lame -b 320 -h -V 0 file.wav file.mp3 (Does Play)

Without -h -V 0 works for most bitrates. Although some CDs don't
play back perfectly. Certain sers and pops. Might be the Korg, might be the lame converter. Files that don't play show an unrecognized file type error on the Korg. Which you just don't know about until it's put on the Korg and tested. Not exactly the prefered methodology for an mp3 player. But it's designed to be a field recorder and appears to excell at that. It'd just be nice if was a bit more, the hardware for that appears to be there for all intents and purposes.

A new link to a higher quality mp3. Not to imply high quality. I used 160 on the other one because the filetypes that seemed to work were of that type. I've gotten a bit more experience with the lame converter and the Korg to do better. At costs (size). Although still better (< 25% size) compared to the original after trimmed and converted to 16 bit @ 44.1kHz.

http://home.earthlink.net/~shadow_7/thunder_320.mp3

Same as two posts up, but converted from 16 bit @ 44.1kHz to mp3 with the following:

lame -b 320 -h -V 0 file.wav file.mp3

I've found that the MR-1000 doesn't support Variable Bit rates, as some other mp3 players. Try constant bit rates of 256 kbps and above and you should be fine. There is a list of supported bit rates in the release notes of the drivers. I've used mine quite a bit as an oversized truly Gear slutty iPod :P


Mats Helgesson
LIVING SOUND

[springer]

Please forgive my humor if anyone is offended but -

KORG MR1000 for mp3's is like buying a Ferrari and putting square wheels on it.

I know I know - but I just couldn't resist...

[lucey]

Oh you're right, totally funny ... why wont my DSD play mp3s!?!

Originally Posted by Lynn Fuston

This reminds me of a product looking for a customer.

Tell me why I'm wrong.

Lynn you should mix to the thing once and report .... it has better depth than any PCM you have, I'd bet. After the mod, even better linearity.

[Shadow_7]

Originally Posted by lucey

Oh you're right, totally funny ... why wont my DSD play mp3s!?!

Well the release notes for the updated drivers just says (plays mp3 files). It doesn't say only plays certain types of mp3 files. I was just pointing that out.

Given that the converters on the MR-1000 blows all of my other gear out of the water, how can I NOT use it as an mp3 player. I wish I could use it as an external sound card. And as an mp3 player is about the only way that I can do that. Not to imply that I'm using just mp3 files. When space isn't an issue and with a 40GB drive it's not much of an issue. I just copy the wav files as extracted from the CD straight to the device. It works well that way. Baring the non mp3 player menu behavior. i.e. Playlist via individual selections, not via filesystem path.

As far as a ferrari with square wheels. How could (or why would) you buy something with several hundred horse power and NOT put a tow hitch on the back.

[lucey]

Originally Posted by Shadow_7

Well the release notes for the updated drivers just says (plays mp3 files). It doesn't say only plays certain types of mp3 files. I was just pointing that out.

hey there's no fault in maxing it out, that's human nature. it's just telling that a main point of all the 'negatives' so far is this application, far afield from it's primary aims!