Korg MR-1000 / 1bit-5.8MHz DSD portable recorder

[DSD_Mastering]

Originally Posted by Darius van H

I just bought a MR-1000 to mess around with.

A question for any DSD boffins out there. If you convert a DSD file to PCM, then back to DSD, do you have any loss or change?.........will the DSD>PCM>DSD file cancel when phase inverted and summed with the original?.......Bruce?

As the above poster states, it will not sum... But.... with "good" outboard DSD=>PCM=>DSD conversion, it's awfully close. It just depends on the material. If the PCM conversion is "only" down to 24/96, then I would say that you would not hear a difference unless you had a great room and monitors.
As always... YMMV..

Regards,
Bruce

[Ruphus]

Originally Posted by Recording David

Thanks - were you recording with the Korg machine?

Yep.
Two Schoeps into a DAV pre and from there to the Korg.

Ruphus

[sergio_fucchi]

Originally Posted by Darius van H

I just bought a MR-1000 to mess around with.

A question for any DSD boffins out there. If you convert a DSD file to PCM, then back to DSD, do you have any loss or change?.........will the DSD>PCM>DSD file cancel when phase inverted and summed with the original?.......Bruce?

I think that this question is like to convert a wave fle to a mp3 file and after to convert this mp3 file in a wave file.

If You convert a DSD file to a wave file You have always a loss of quality because sampling algorithm of PCM is different than DSD. Audiogate software can convert a DSD file into a PCM files, but not a PCM file into a DSD file so You should have to record your PCM file and record it to connect audio output of Your PC Audio Card to line input of MR-1000. So You will have also some loss of quality due to conversion of PCM in analog (audio output from PC audio card) and analog in DSD (audio input to MR-1000). Otherwise You could use a different sotware can do it, but original DSD file should be different from final file.

You can read a test at page 7 of this Korg pdf document:
http://www.korg.com/mr/Future_Proof_..._Explained.pdf

Sergio.

[Majken]

No one else with the same problem huh? Well here's an example to show you what I mean. It's a Gibson J45 recorded in my kitchen using two Blue Baby Bottle microphones in XY-stereo.

http://www.majken.se/mp3/gitarr-korgmr1000.wav
http://www.majken.se/mp3/gitarr-emu1820m.wav
http://www.majken.se/mp3/gitarr-mbox2pro.wav

As you will hear the MR1000 has alot of background noise (this is using the high level switch), while the E-MU 1820m micpreamps has less noise and the Mbox 2 Pro has even less background noise.

The audio files were recorded at 24 bit 96 kilohertz except for the MR1000 which was originally recorded at 5.6 MHz and then converted to 24/96 using Audiobridge. All files were then trimmed in length and volume in Cubase and then exported to 16/44 to save bandwidth.

[hrn]

There is something wrong with the http://www.majken.se/mp3/gitarr-mr1000.wav link.

[Majken]

Sorry about that, the correct link is - http://www.majken.se/mp3/gitarr-korgmr1000.wav

[sergio_fucchi]

Originally Posted by Majken

No one else with the same problem huh? Well here's an example to show you what I mean. It's a Gibson J45 recorded in my kitchen using two Blue Baby Bottle microphones in XY-stereo.

http://www.majken.se/mp3/gitarr-korgmr1000.wav
http://www.majken.se/mp3/gitarr-emu1820m.wav
http://www.majken.se/mp3/gitarr-mbox2pro.wav

As you will hear the MR1000 has alot of background noise (this is using the high level switch), while the E-MU 1820m micpreamps has less noise and the Mbox 2 Pro has even less background noise.

I have heared these files in sequence and using headphones, but I don't hear any noise in first file. This has more harmonics then others.
You should have to upload in Your website files at 24bit/96kHz without make any changes with Your audio software.

Sergio.

[Majken]

Are you by any chance using open headphones in a noisy listening environment? There's a huge difference if you ask me. I can even hear the extra noise through my laptop speakers. Listen to the Mbox 2 Pro file followed by the Korg MR-1000. You'll instantly hear the extra noise once the Korg soundfile starts playing.

[WeAreMetroid]

I've been eagerly following the posts about the Korg MR-1000.

..but before i go and buy it i'd really like to know this...

I'm currently running intel MacBook ( the one with 60 gigabyteHD )

When using AudioGate software do you load all the raw files first
on your HD to be able to convert them? ...or does it read them straight from the MR1000?

If it loads them to HD first, is it possible to choose an external drive from
AudioGate because right now i just wouldn't have the space on my internal HD?

[TAVD]

Originally Posted by WeAreMetroid

I've been eagerly following the posts about the Korg MR-1000.

..but before i go and buy it i'd really like to know this...

I'm currently running intel MacBook ( the one with 60 gigabyteHD )

When using AudioGate software do you load all the raw files first
on your HD to be able to convert them? ...or does it read them straight from the MR1000?

If it loads them to HD first, is it possible to choose an external drive from
AudioGate because right now i just wouldn't have the space on my internal HD?

In USB mode, the Korg looks like any external drive. You can read directly from it, drag & drop and so on.

[WeAreMetroid]

Thanks for the info.

[sergio_fucchi]

Originally Posted by Majken

Are you by any chance using open headphones in a noisy listening environment? There's a huge difference if you ask me. I can even hear the extra noise through my laptop speakers. Listen to the Mbox 2 Pro file followed by the Korg MR-1000. You'll instantly hear the extra noise once the Korg soundfile starts playing.

I have used my Audio Technica AT-fs40 (closed type) plugged into the external box of my Creative X-Fi Elite Pro.
If You are able to upload original 1-bit file of MR-100 and others 24bit/96kHz files it should be better.

Sergio.

[Majken]

The soundfiles doesn't even have close to 90 decibel of dynamic range. So uploading them as 1 or 24 bit really wouldn't make any difference.

Try lining the soundfiles up in any multitrack recording software. Activate solo and switch between them. You'll easily be able to spot the MR-1000 recording. Especially during the beginning and end of the soundfiles.

Please note that I'm not trying to be rude, but if you can't tell them apart you really should have a look at your gear and/or hearing. Cause the difference is really big.

[Sinewave]

Originally Posted by PMoshay

Many people have asked here and contacted me to see if there will be a multitrack version of the MR recorders. I have not heard if they are or not, but it had been discussed from the start that if the interest in the 2 track version was there, that there would be reason for developing a multitrack version, and it seems like the response has been amazing so far.
I hope that people who have not yet tried it, will ask a dealer to take one for a demo and do a A/B comparason with the system they are using now......that includes people who bounce to disk. I have yet to have anyone not like the 1bit best, but don't take it from me...... Listen and see for yourself with your own setup.

I also know that archiving aging analog tapes to 1bit can be a very good source of income as well as a very smart idea.

Its very encouraging at least that now iTunes offers better quality downloads..........1 foot in the right direction at least........many miles to go still though.....

for multi track DSD recorder

[DSD_Mastering]

Just got my electronic copy of Pro Audio Review.
Has a review of the Korg MR-1, Tascam DV-RA1000HD and the Fostex FR-2LE. Good reading!
The issue covers many field recorders.

Regards,
Bruce

[hrn]

" for multi track DSD recorder"

What a revolution that could be. Think about the newcomers getting themselves multi channels DSD systems laughing at the guys using ordinary sample stuff like Weiss, Lavry, Prism, Apogee and so on.....

If the cost would be "low", I will Halleluja it as a real revolution for all of us with not so much money. Just think about it 10000 ->1000

[TAVD]

Originally Posted by Sinewave

for multi track DSD recorder

[DSD_Mastering]

Originally Posted by Sinewave

for multi track DSD recorder

I've seen several used Genex machines on here for < $8k

Regards,
Bruce

[Sinewave]

Originally Posted by DSD_Mastering

I've seen several used Genex machines on here for < $8k

Regards,
Bruce

But you would need an analog console to mix with these Genex machines or maybe the Neve 8816 .What someone should do is to provide a cheap PCI / Interface card that can process DSD and the editing software that goes with it, and let people choose there DSD converter of choice (Mytek for a good but cheap DSD converter )
That solution would provide a better answer than just a Multitrack DSD recorder especially where some form of editing and mixing is needed.

[DSD_Mastering]

Originally Posted by Sinewave

That solution would provide a better answer than just a Multitrack DSD recorder especially where some form of editing and mixing is needed.

About the cheapest solution is to buy a Sonoma card for $8K. That will give you 8 channels of DSD mixing/editing.

Regards,
Bruce

[Sinewave]

Originally Posted by DSD_Mastering

About the cheapest solution is to buy a Sonoma card for $8K. That will give you 8 channels of DSD mixing/editing.

Regards,
Bruce

Hmmmm Intresting and how much would be for the Mytek with the Sonoma DSD optical option , do you know per chance?.

[Plush]

It's folly to think that a cheap DSD solution (with editing) is in the offing.

I've followed DSD since 1999 and there has never been a "cheap DSD solution."
There isn't one now either.

A "professional" editor is still expensive and working in DSD is expensive. This is the reason that it never took off in the pro audio recording community. There never was a way to EQ, compress, limit etc. in DSD. Post production was non existent.

Studios went to analog and back to DSD thus aggravating the problem of two DSD passes. (where there is a build-up of treble noise.)

DXD is a high clock pcm solution to editing and SADiE discontinued their DSD editor.

The only real DSD editor left is the Sonoma.

Back to square one. . .


I like the KORG unit but I was disappointed to see it measure poorly on the "Pro Audio Review" bench test. The part where it measured poorly was in dynamic range capability---the same as a 16 bit dat machine at 96dB.

[Sinewave]

It's folly to think that a cheap DSD solution (with editing) is in the offing.

That may be true but i was just thinking that may be a better option than asking for a multitrack recorder since people would be calling for some form of editor anyway,if it was ever possible to make it cheaply.

I like the KORG unit but I was disappointed to see it measure poorly on the "Pro Audio Review" bench test. The part where it measured poorly was in dynamic range capability---the same as a 16 bit dat machine at 96dB.
Today 08:16 AM

Well something had to give for a cheap box.

[Plush]

Hello Sinewave,

In a posting above you call for a cheap solution.

Then in the post directly above this, you say something has to give in order to have a cheap solution.

Doing important projects in the recording business used to mean one assembled a set-up that minimized compromises.

I like to think that that is still a worthy goal.
That's also why I'm arguing against your proposal.

[Sinewave]

In a posting above you call for a cheap solution.

Hello Plush,
Well i meant a cheaper solution for multitrack recording using DSD than the usual Workstations (Sonoma ,Pyramix ) but as you pointed out such a task might still be expensive.

Then in the post directly above this, you say something has to give in order to have a cheap solution.

Well you seemed disappointed with the 96db, for $1200 bucks i guess something had to give, if it was possible like i suggested above to provide part of the tools for DSD like, card / interface an allow people to choose their converter it might provide a "cheaper solution " but then this is just my opinion.

Doing important projects in the recording business used to mean one assembled a set-up that minimized compromises.

I like to think that that is still a worthy goal.
That's also why I'm arguing against your proposal.

Fair enough.

[Plush]

My point about the dynamic range is that Sony and others claim 120dB for DSD.

Of course this was never the case, but 110-112 should be possible.
This would put DSD in the same ballpark as well engineered/designed pcm a/d's and recorders.

Don't let the above take away from my high opinion of the KORG box. I still like to use and listen to the 1000.

What I'm doing is calling attention to the reality vs. the myth.

[Sinewave]

Originally Posted by Plush

My point about the dynamic range is that Sony and others claim 120dB for DSD.

Of course this was never the case, but 110-112 should be possible.
This would put DSD in the same ballpark as well engineered/designed pcm a/d's and recorders.

Don't let the above take away from my high opinion of the KORG box. I still like to use and listen to the 1000.

What I'm doing is calling attention to the reality vs. the myth.

Understood.