Korg MR-1000 / 1bit-5.8MHz DSD portable recorder

[grsteve]

Hi Martin,
Thanks for the info (not exactly the solution I was hoping for, )

Does anyone besides me think this recorder would be much more useful if it supported Scene/Session name creation with incrementing take numbers like the 722 or FR2? Seems like something that could be added with firmware.

Maybe I'll email them about this.

-Steve

[DSD_GUS]

Originally Posted by eliottjames

Have you compared the DSD recording with the same material recorded to a PCM 24/96? Or have you transferred the DSD file to 24/96 PCM and noticed a difference in sound?

What I'm asking is do you believe DSD sounds better or have you proven it to sound better by direct comparison?

thanks

Eliott

I think you will find that DSD recordings have a completely different (more natural) character than any PCM recorder regardless of the sample rate. I think the Korg as a DSD recorder is excellent, and when the files are played back on high end DSD converters, the Korg is pretty dam amazing sonically.

[Darius van H]

Originally Posted by DSD_GUS

I think you will find that DSD recordings have a completely different (more natural) character than any PCM recorder regardless of the sample rate. I think the Korg as a DSD recorder is excellent, and when the files are played back on high end DSD converters, the Korg is pretty dam amazing sonically.

What about when the files are played back on the Korg itself?

[DSD_GUS]

Originally Posted by Darius van H

What about when the files are played back on the Korg itself?

It still sounds more natural than any PCM recorder I've heard - imho.

[DSD_Mastering]

Originally Posted by DSD_GUS

It still sounds more natural than any PCM recorder I've heard - imho.

Too bad it doesn't have digital outs so you can go directly into the EMM Labs converters. I'd love to hear it at 5.8!!

Regards,
Bruce

[PMoshay]

Originally Posted by DSD_Mastering

Too bad it doesn't have digital outs so you can go directly into the EMM Labs converters. I'd love to hear it at 5.8!!

Regards,
Bruce

Can't you just drag the file from the MR-1000 over to your computer and play it thru your system now? Then you can have the clocking from your master system as well.

I'm not sure why a digital out is that necessary when you can copy the file to your master system and change the sample & bit rate on your computer with the Audiogate software that's included.

[DSD_Mastering]

Originally Posted by PMoshay

Can't you just drag the file from the MR-1000 over to your computer and play it thru your system now? Then you can have the clocking from your master system as well.

I'm not sure why a digital out is that necessary when you can copy the file to your master system and change the sample & bit rate on your computer with the Audiogate software that's included.

Because Pyramix will only do the standard 2.8MHz DSD. The Korg as well as the EMM Labs can do 5.8MHz. I don't want to downsample....

Regards,
Bruce

[MattiMattMatt]

I can understand the value of recording something on any high quality format-agnostic recorder and then converting to a distribution format. So if the MR-1000 happens to be a very nice recorder, I can understand why you'd want to record with it and convert to other formats.

However, if you had a high quality recorder in your distribution or editing format of choice, I don't understand the advantage of recording in another format, even if it's a better format. If you plan to convert to PCM, then you discard the DSD advantage and have only added an extra step.

To be extreme about it, say you wanted to make an mp3. If you had a great mp3 recorder, would that not be the best option? If you first recorded to a DSD deck, and then transfered to mp3, you discard the DSD advantage and have added an extra step that at best, does nothing, and at worst, adds distortion.

In other words, say you were working with format X. Isn't the best approach to record on the best format X recorder you could get? If you recorded first on a format Y recorder and then transfered to format X, all you've done is introduce extra steps into the process that at best do nothing and at worst introduce distortion. You discard the advantages of Format Y over Format X when you convert.

Adding Format Y, because Format Y is a superior format, seems to go against the "straight wire" logic of recording if you are not going to edit or distribute in Format Y.

I understand the rational for recording and mixing at higher resolutions because of all the math involved, but I don't understand the value of recording in an exotic format if you are not going to edit in it, and are going to change it to something else anyway.

Am I missing something obvious?

[Bluzzi]

Your comments make sense but you would have to try it before being sure. Also I would think an MP3 recorder itself would not bother too much with great electronic since the designer is assuming anyone wanting MP3 isn't exactly a picky audiophile.

My experience has been that the better the source the better the result. That doesn;t mean its correct for everything.

I'm sure a pristine PCM converter will sound great etc. For me what did it was the price and the fact that it acts like a 2 track mixdown recorder. There was the Masterlink and a few other straight to CD recorder and other units but none were cheaper and teh ones that were close like the Masterlink had some negative reputation in the audio quality dept.

In any case most of us are converting in one way or another. It can't be avoided.

I'm sure if someone made an MP3 recorder with pristine quality converters it would sound better than converting from 24bit 96khz but I don't think it exists.

So I think all things being perfect and designed perfectly yes converting would be degrading the audio but we live in an imperfect world. Budget makes you compromise (I'd love a pair if K&H 0300 too but I can't have them....right now...so I use what I have to the best of my ability) but you can still have great results.

In the end you listen and decide regardless of what format. You have to please your own ears first then you forget the tools and get to work.

jim

[DSD_GUS]

Originally Posted by MattiMattMatt

To be extreme about it, say you wanted to make an mp3. If you had a great mp3 recorder, would that not be the best option? If you first recorded to a DSD deck, and then transfered to mp3, you discard the DSD advantage and have added an extra step that at best, does nothing, and at worst, adds distortion.

Am I missing something obvious?

True enough, practically speaking... That is if you only need an MP3... If, however, you expect to need a higher quality version in the future, then you are out of luck if you don't go the extra step. If you'll never need a higher quality version then i think you are right. You don't gain much...

...unless you use a very hi-end method to get from the DSD to the MP3. And then it is probably more just one extra step to get to MP3.

And the reason there might be a difference here, is that, after the DSD recording, you could use a very computer intensive process to decimate to PCM... A process that would be cost prohibitive to be in a commecial A to D converter.

When we make SACD's we frequently do this to generate the redbook layer. And then taking that redbook layer down to MP3 produces some pretty amazing results...

[PMoshay]

Why buy a Porsche if the speed limit is 65mph?

[raal]

Originally Posted by PMoshay

Why buy a Porsche if the speed limit is 65mph?

sounds better than a ford falcon?

so how do you guys that already have the MR-1000 label your tunes/projects? is it really a PITA? thanks.

[Reptil]

Originally Posted by PMoshay

Why buy a Porsche if the speed limit is 65mph?

you can go from 0 to 65 really fast?

[Motiatronix]

Hi...just a quick question about the MR 1000's brother the MR 1...does anyone know if it uses the same Burr Brown and Cirrus Logic convertors.I have tried to find out all over the place but no mention.

Thanks for any info on this.

regards

[TAVD]

Originally Posted by Motiatronix

Hi...just a quick question about the MR 1000's brother the MR 1...does anyone know if it uses the same Burr Brown and Cirrus Logic convertors.I have tried to find out all over the place but no mention.

Thanks for any info on this.

regards

Not sure if they're the same exact chips, but I opened up my MR-1 and it did in fact have Cirrus Logic & Burr Brown chips. It's the most non-digital digital recorder I've heard to date. The only thing I wish for is an affordable SSD drive and some free DSD editing software courtesy of Korg.

[Motiatronix]

HI TAVD.....thankyou for the info, seems that it's more than likely the same ones, which is good news, I have heard people mention there is not much discernible difference between them at 2.8 DSD rates.

I have ordered one a few days ago anyway so really looking forward to capturing all sorts as well as listening to it.

Re the editor, I also hope Korg do an editor of some sorts.

regards

[Darius van H]

quote from the Korg website:

The MR-1000 comes with Korg’s innovative and powerful AudioGate™ software for Mac® and PC. AudioGate can convert 1-bit recordings into WAV and AIFF formats at various bit-rates (and vice versa) and offers real-time conversion and playback of 1-bit files using your computer’s audio hardware.

This seems to suggest the MR-1000 can act as a soundcard, but i see no mentions of ASIO drivers etc...........could someone with the Korg clarify what this means?

[TAVD]

Originally Posted by Darius van H

offers real-time conversion and playback of 1-bit files using your computer’s audio hardware.

That's poorly worded. It does real-time conversion to pcm, so you can playback through any sound card. In the case of the Sony Vaio that support dsd playback, I'm assuming the conversion is from the current format to dsf, but I'm not sure.

[tnjazz]

Well I was using my MR-1000 in the field on Monday and TWICE got the "HDD Too Busy" error. I'm running firmware 1.51 so I was under the impression this was fixed.

Apparently not though.

Not to mention a bunch of skipping in one of the subsequent tracks. Not really a good thing at all. I love the sound of this box, but this has me just a little worried about its reliability.

[sonic_man]

Originally Posted by TAVD

In the case of the Sony Vaio that support dsd playback, I'm assuming the conversion is from the current format to dsf, but I'm not sure.

I am using one of those sound-reality VAIOs that offer the playback of DSD-files thru the so-calles "Sonic Mastering Studio" (playback "only" also works with the normal windows media player btw on those systems).

Sonic Mastering Studio imports .dsf & .dff files (2.8 Mhz). Even though it comes with a couple of nice plugins (Sony Oxford + Waves stuff), fx processing is only available in PCM mode :( .

The interesting point: You can export DSD to WAV with Sony's Super Bit Mapping technology, unfortunately I didn't have the time yet to compare it to Korg's solution.

Nevertheless, I wanted to add that I was recording a wonderful modern music concerto last weekend with the 302/MR-1000 combo. Client's now planning to release the live recording on SACD after hearing the difference between DSD (2.8 Mhz) and CD-quality...that says it all. Btw no problems / errors at all with the Korg, it performed flawlessly on this side of the atlantic.

Cheers,

Martin

[macr0w]

Originally Posted by tnjazz

Well I was using my MR-1000 in the field on Monday and TWICE got the "HDD Too Busy" error. I'm running firmware 1.51 so I was under the impression this was fixed.

Apparently not though.

Not to mention a bunch of skipping in one of the subsequent tracks. Not really a good thing at all. I love the sound of this box, but this has me just a little worried about its reliability.

Now you've got me worried. I was about the buy one but now I'm not so sure.

[DSD_GUS]

Originally Posted by macr0w

Now you've got me worried. I was about the buy one but now I'm not so sure.

Maybe there is a problem with the physical disk. Maybe you should try to reformat it. It is a question for Korg Service, but possibly reformatting the disk might map out grown defects in the drive, and it might work fine after the reformat... Just a thought.

[Joe Porto]

Originally Posted by Darius van H

quote from the Korg website:

The MR-1000 comes with Korg’s innovative and powerful AudioGate™ software for Mac® and PC. AudioGate can convert 1-bit recordings into WAV and AIFF formats at various bit-rates (and vice versa) and offers real-time conversion and playback of 1-bit files using your computer’s audio hardware.

This seems to suggest the MR-1000 can act as a soundcard, but i see no mentions of ASIO drivers etc...........could someone with the Korg clarify what this means?

You can play DSD files from the Korg directly from it's own harddrive in DSD, or you can use the USB connector to transfer files to your computer. Once they are on the computer, you use Audiogate to convert them, but at this point, the mr-1000 is out of the picture. Audiogate has WMV and ASIO drivers (I'm on PC) so Audiogate plays through your computer's sound card. It laods the DSD file, and converts it in real time to PCM to play through your sound card, and it allows you to convert the DSD files into PCM .wav or .aiff files to be saved.

[stevee_z]

hello,
is it possible to record mono with the mr1000? if for example recording voice with a mono mic which would be attached to one input, will the recorded material be only recorded on the left or right channel? or will it be on both?
thanx for your help.

[dlmorley]

it would be recorded on 1 channel... i.e left or right

[tnjazz]

Well, more issues last evening. Again got the error twice during the performance, along with some skips.

The unit was more cushioned this time, but apparently to no avail.

Again it was run upright - perhaps running standing on edge is an issue with these units?

The only other thing I can think of is that the firmware is the issue. The unit was rock solid on firmware 1.5, now at 1.51 it's giving me these problems. (that's called "Digidesign Syndrome", isn't it?)

I plan to test it extensively in the next 2-3 days. First order of business will be to roll back the firmware. Hope that's doable.

This is making me crazy, because the unit sounds SOOOOOOO good.

More later. If any Korg reps are reading this, maybe you could provide some insight?

[PMoshay]

You should contact Korg support , it could be possible you have a problem with the hard drive, the problem you are describing points to that. The new software would not make that issue worse as it should improve drive performance.

[Plush]

Mr. TN Jazz,

It seems you may have a defective unit. It should be looked at and tested by KORG. Please return it to your dealer and ask for another unit.

If you don't insist on getting good service from your dealer, then customers will continue to be marginalized and good service and support will be harder to find.

Our needs and our professions should not be subject to a "consumer" (I hate that word)
level of "customer service."

Demand action and light them up on the telephone. Don't only make your concerns heard with email. Light up the dealer and KORG customer service. Always be polite.

PROFESSIONALS ONLY NEED APPLY

[tnjazz]

Yes sir, Mr. Plush-phonic sir! I will most definitely be in touch with Korg on Monday to find out what's up.

In the meantime, just to second-guess myself I've rolled the firmware back to 1.50 and have optimized the drive. I have a small club show I can experiment with on Monday evening (the Korg will be a secondary or 3rd deck, so no worries), so I'm going to go ahead and give it a shot. I'm actually hoping for a disk error again, otherwise I'll be very worried.

Nothing worse than not being able to trust your recording device.

[macr0w]

Demand action and light them up on the telephone. Don't only make your concerns heard with email. Light up the dealer and KORG customer service. Always be polite.

I totally agree.