Some Q's

[sei046]

Okay, I am recording two choirs in the next few weeks and have a few questions.

If i want to record a 17 piece choir in a small room whats the best micing or standing position?
I was thinking that maybe the four harmonys could stand at oppostite corners facing each other with the mics in the middle facing out to each group. Presuming i use something like a 58 or 57 i shouldnt get too much bleeding should I?

This would also allow for the choir to follow each other.

Or should i try building up the choir as in record each harmony seperately? If thats the case should I play the other harmonys back over speakers then record just the the backing and knock it out of phase to just leave the harmony? Will this mess up the rest of the track?



For the other choir i have to record a 30 piece SATB arrangement with an organ on location in a church. My main Q here is does anyone know a mathematical way of getting the mic distance i should use and then the corresponding pan values to get a nice stereo image when i get down to mixing?

I have recorded a very large choir before but had some bleed issues i want to avoid. I used a variety of mics at that but think i will stick to dynamics this time around

[pkautzsch]

17-piece:
Honestly, your ideas are a recipe for disaster. You will not get bleed, that's true, but you won't get anything similar to a choir sound either, when you use 57/58 or other "vocal" mics designed for close-miking. As soon as you have a little more distance they sound very thin, and they won't have enough output.
Condenser is the way to go, and I prefer small diaphragm (but that's a matter of taste). Set the choir up in a half-circle, and give each section a mic (ie 4 mics for SATB), when the room is small. Put up a "main pair" not too close and mix the section mics to taste. Panning: Main pair hard L/R, section mics as is appropriate.
And: LISTEN if what you're recording is what you imagined before.
Try to record them in the church too. Will be a lot better than in a small room.
30-piece in church:
Main pair is most important here (as is always except in too small rooms). Again, condensor is the way to go, and you might well use SD omnis (best bass response of all mics! you need that for organ).
There isn't a rule or anything mathematical in recording. Set the main mic up where it sounds best - probably this will be a spaced omni setup about 8ft from the choir, and spaced about 2 ft. For a quick and reliable setup, though, I'd rather recommend using two cardioids, angled 90°, spaced 25cm. Set this up wherever the two mics will point exactly to the most outward singers, and you'll get a result that is at least OK. Let the choir balance themselves with the organ.

The only way to do choirs with dynamic mics would be giving each singer an individual mic. No good.

[ruipenha]

For a small choir in a dry room, I've got good results using two large diafragm mics as an MS pair with omni (not cardioid) + 8 figure, with the singers surrounding the mics. You're balance will be limited to front+back vs left+right, though, so use this only if you have a very well rehearsed professional choir that can balance itself. If this is the case, and a choir in a circle is perhaps the best setup to achieve balance, you can forget all about the strict separation between SATB and just mix them for the perfect blending of the harmony: in a circle, single singers (not to confuse with swingle singers!) as SATBSATBSATBSATB, etc.

Hope it helps!

Best regards,

Rui Penha

[ruipenha]

Sorry... I didn't notice you wanted the exact opposite of what I proposed: strict separation of voices... may I ask why?

[d_fu]

Maybe you should just let someone else do this recording and just watch - maybe you'll learn something... As has been said before, your ideas will inevitably lead to disaster.

[sei046]

Originally Posted by d_fu

Maybe you should just let someone else do this recording and just watch - maybe you'll learn something... As has been said before, your ideas will inevitably lead to disaster.

Right. Let me explain. i got a friend over the road to put up this post based around some basic Q's I had and he got some stuff mixed up and didnt phrase it exacly how i meant him too.... That said i think the response was a bit of a shame considering that where i am from engineers and producers have a lot more respect for each other.


So now that i can i will post a few questions. Plans have somewhat changed anyway. I am thinking of setting up the choir in a circle and placing possibly four condensers facing towards them. Just wondering how many phase problems i will end up with here.


For the 30 piece should i change the phase on the 2nd and 4th mic to be sure of phase? Whats the downfall of doing this? I will be using the 3 to 1 rule so i cant foresee a massive problem but maybe its no harm. Also should i work out how my panning "Should" be in relation to the actual distance between mics on the day? I say should because i know "sense" doesnt always come into recording and that you have to just see what sounds best.

Do have to admit i am a little disheartened at some of the comments made to the last post. Kind of worrying to think that people who think they are the bees knees treat inexperience like that. People like that dont get jobs where i come from. I say i am surprised because I in reading this board i have come across lots of guys who know their stuff and couldnt have helped begginers in a better way. Thats true experience

[sei046]

oh and sorry for not clearin up some stuff there. The dynamics were spot mikes on different singers who had solos throughout the songs. Was the only way i could think of doing it as they did not want to be removed from group.

And thanks for the figure 8 MS idea. Thats kinda close to what i was thinking. Its not a big enough choir to really need a large stereo image so might try that

[hughesmr]

I think your approach is making things much more complicated than necessary. Keep the choir in an arc, a semicircle at MOST. Bag the circle idea. Mic 'em up with an ORTF pr of card or wide card consenders at moderate distance. Have the soloists step out of the choir at the appropriate time to a predetermined spot in order to add presence to their voices.

There is no need for so many tracks for such a modest ensemble, especially when choral BLEND should be the goal in your captured sound. If the choir is worth anything, then they have rehearsed hard to achieve that blend, and it should be your goal as a recording engineer to capture it in as passive a manner as possible. Building your own 'blend' from numerous tracks in post is not music-making, IMO.

Two channels will work great if you do it well.

[pkautzsch]

Ah, right. In the way you present it now, it seems to make sense. Sorry if my reply sounded a bit hard - you've seen yourself that the question was not what you actually were asking, and seemed rather amateurish. I must admit I first thought this could maybe be a Troll thread...seemed just sooo strange and wrong nobody could actually have such ideas.
But now that things have been cleared up:
Four mic choir setups are sort-of standard, usually no phase problems. I like 2 mic setups for choir better, though. Some may say that a 2 mic setup needs much more time for perfect placing - but 4 mics also need to be perfectly placed, needing even more time.
SM58 for soloists can work, if it's not strictly classical music. Wouldn't use a 58 for classical, but eg. for gospel-ish music I think it can work fine.

[T.RayBullard]

Actually I like ribbons on Choirs quite a bit..condensors are not the only way to go.

Originally Posted by pkautzsch

17-piece:

Main pair is most important here (as is always except in too small rooms). Again, condensor is the way to go, and you might well use SD omnis (best bass response of all mics! you need that for organ).

for the OP..ignore all the specific spacing jibber jabber, throw up one main pair(your go-to mics...whatever that pair is), throw in some spot mics for taste, and record already! to hell with all this 90 degrees spaced 48 centimeters at a windage of 45 knots phased invert pi squared bullshit ..just use a main pair, put em in the right place...and BAM! it aint rocket science. leave that nonsense to the classroom geeks. make music.

keep it simple, stupid.

[sei046]

for the small room what do you think about reverbs? any good ideas? i know its very general and to taste but any nice tricks?

For the church job the choir is up on a high balcony so should i try and catch a bit of room ambience there? AFAIK it has nice acoustics. What mite the best way be?

[joelpatterson]

Originally Posted by T.RayBullard

Actually I like ribbons on Choirs quite a bit....

Telling them how to dress? That's going too far!

[T.RayBullard]

Originally Posted by sei046

for the small room what do you think about reverbs? any good ideas? i know its very general and to taste but any nice tricks?

For the church job the choir is up on a high balcony so should i try and catch a bit of room ambience there? AFAIK it has nice acoustics. What mite the best way be?

bud...why not get the recording dry and then see what is missing(if anything??) you can always add, but it is hard to take reverb OUT.

if the room has good acoustics, of course you should have a seperate pair recording that..imo.

[T.RayBullard]

Originally Posted by joelpatterson

Telling them how to dress? That's going too far!

Kip Winger to the rescue! I love a smart alec!

[pkautzsch]

Originally Posted by T.RayBullard

for the OP..ignore all the specific spacing jibber jabber, throw up one main pair(your go-to mics...whatever that pair is), throw in some spot mics for taste, and record already! to hell with all this 90 degrees spaced 48 centimeters at a windage of 45 knots phased invert pi squared bullshit ..just use a main pair, put em in the right place...and BAM! it aint rocket science. leave that nonsense to the classroom geeks. make music.

This is where you always seem to get me wrong, Teddy. I'm not saying a certain angle and a certain spacing is THE only way, and I think most readers understand that. But if asked for something "mathematical" or "cooking recipe", I believe it makes sense to recommend something that is easily measurable while at the same time yielding usable (though mostly not the best possible) results.
As long as a beginner (which I wrongly supposed the OP was) doesn't know what he wants to hear, and as long as he doesn't know how a main pair system works, it's not that easy to set something up "to taste". He needs some guidelines to start with, and these are not bullshit, nor are they jibber jabber.

You might have read the two sentences right before the one about 25cm 90°. They were:

Originally Posted by pkautzsch

There isn't a rule or anything mathematical in recording. Set the main mic up where it sounds best - probably this will be a spaced omni setup about 8ft from the choir, and spaced about 2 ft.

.
These include the words "probably" and "about", and the phrase "There isn't a rule". No need to quote other posts only partially and inverting their meaning.

[sei046]

Sory i think someone misunderstood me there abt reverb. It will most certainly be dry in the small room i am just asking if there are any nice tricks people have used when applying reverb. I heard some guy talking about panning reverb to the left side and panning it 100% and 50% right to get the idea of it bouncing off walls. Things like that?

This is a very Confusing thread so i apologise!
I think there is room for fairly hard rules such as if you want no phase problems with two mics do.....etc.(i know its general) but i also understand the see what sounds good so dont get too worked up lads.


I know the pic makes absolutely no sense but can you guys draw in where you think i should use certain mics or try certain things? I know its hard with that representation!

[pkautzsch]

Probably right at the bottom edge of that pic would be a good place for a main pair.
Choir spots can pick up lots of very dry organ sound, so I'd rather not use them or place them very carefully (figure-eights would be nice there...).

[hughesmr]

That picture actually kinda looks like a choir I sing with.

[sei046]

explain how i would use a figure 8 there? i dont have too much experience using it sorry

[pkautzsch]

Well, you would have the + lobe pointing downward to the choir, the - lobe upward, and the 90° rejection to the organ - thus not recording direct sound from the organ.

I'm not sure if that works, since you'll be nearly over the singers' heads, but for some amount of presence, maybe...
It's being done regularly over Second Violins and Violas in an orchestra, sitting in front of brass&winds and timpani.

[sei046]

ok a little more info.

The setup will be Soprano and Alto (about 6 people each) in two squares or lines and then behind the sopranos will be the bass and behind the alto will be the tenor. She insists on this arrangement. Beside the Choir will be the organ(which is handier than behind).
So any suggestions for a good micing technique?

[pkautzsch]

I would prefer the organ being behind the choir, at least on the recording. Matter of taste though. For this I'd suggest starting with a "two main pair" setup: one pair for the choir, one pair for the organ. You might want to invert the pans of one of the pairs in mixdown for less susceptible crosstalk.

If you want the organ at the side, put up just one main pair until it sounds good...

[sei046]

sorry Pk i meant during tracking its at the corner but in the mix it will be centered. So your saying use 2 XY patterns or just 2 condensers each with a bit or space between them?

[d_fu]

I think you never mentioned what kind of music exactly this is going to be...

Daniel

[sei046]

Originally Posted by d_fu

I think you never mentioned what kind of music exactly this is going to be...

Daniel

both quite laid back affairs (church music)

[pkautzsch]

I'd go for two spaced pairs. Localisation shouldn't be a problem with a small choir like you have, and as to organ I'm one of the "diffuse is good" guys.

I'd put them up somewhat like this:

--O--R--G--A--N-- --BASS---TENOR--
--------------------- --SOPR---ALTO---

Mic 1----2----------------3-----4-----

Panning: Mic 1 hard right (!), 2 hard left (!) (thus "mirroring" the organ behind the choir), 3 hard left, 4 hard right. You might want to set up the organ pair a little farther away and spaced wider than the choir pair.

The outcome will then be something like:

-----N-A-G-R-O------ ("organ" from right to left)
---BASS---TENOR--
---SOPR----ALTO---

Others here will say, use ORTF or Blumlein. They have had great results with those setups, just a matter of taste.

[d_fu]

Originally Posted by sei046

both quite laid back affairs (church music)

But not classical repertoire, I assume... More the Gospel kind or so?

[sei046]

yup gospel. Pretty much no classical AFAIK. Thanks Pk, real practical advice