recording cello concert.

[arpodthegreat]

for my dad's birthday, a very good cellist is performing for a small group of close friends. it will be mainly solo cello with a few pieces including piano as well. i want to do a recording using 2 mics only and on one stand (stereo bar). i don't know the room really but i know it's in someones house so not to big. i have stereo pairs of a AKG 460s 451s and Avensons (omni, like earthworks). what set up would you recomend. i kind of want to try and M/S using an AKG with a U87 that i can use. since there is really only one instrument stereo width is not a big deal, just want a good sense of space. i was also thinking of using the Avensons and having them in an ORTF kind of placement to get good sense of space and minimal off axis distortion. what do you guys think?

[T.RayBullard]

Jecklin Disc with the omnis... Will always work, and is a really safe bet in unknown situations. A really stunning config..next to blumlein..my favorite method.


they are very easy to make.

http://gearslutz.com/board/archive/i...hp/t-2875.html

http://maltedmedia.com/people/bathory/jecklin.html

http://www.klankschap.nl/ndotb.pdf

http://groups.google.ca/group/rec.au...15ddc88d?hl=en

Originally Posted by arpodthegreat

for my dad's birthday, a very good cellist is performing for a small group of close friends. it will be mainly solo cello with a few pieces including piano as well. i want to do a recording using 2 mics only and on one stand (stereo bar). i don't know the room really but i know it's in someones house so not to big. i have stereo pairs of a AKG 460s 451s and Avensons (omni, like earthworks). what set up would you recomend. i kind of want to try and M/S using an AKG with a U87 that i can use. since there is really only one instrument stereo width is not a big deal, just want a good sense of space. i was also thinking of using the Avensons and having them in an ORTF kind of placement to get good sense of space and minimal off axis distortion. what do you guys think?

[pkautzsch]

I don't think J-Disk is so much safer than other omni setups. The most simple and safe - but (therefore?) sort of boring - setup to me is ORTF which is precisely defined.
I'd probably go for ~1ft spaced omnis (or in a living room, rather cardioids). Will sound "realistic" as to the impression of the room, and will not reproduce every small change of position (so the cellist won't "jump" from left to right). SDCs - if you can get a pair of Schoeps instead of the U87...
If that doesn't work, you still have the ORTF option which is never really wrong, but seldom really the best solution.

[T.RayBullard]

Originally Posted by pkautzsch

I don't think J-Disk is so much safer than other omni setups. The most simple and safe - but (therefore?) sort of boring - setup to me is ORTF which is precisely defined.
I'd probably go for ~1ft spaced omnis (or in a living room, rather cardioids). Will sound "realistic" as to the impression of the room, and will not reproduce every small change of position (so the cellist won't "jump" from left to right). SDCs - if you can get a pair of Schoeps instead of the U87...
If that doesn't work, you still have the ORTF option which is never really wrong, but seldom really the best solution.

the jdisc gives every advantage of spaced omnis, with more focus, tighter LF and less hassle.


Jecklin and Blumlein are vastly superior as far as "realism" goes.
Plush (an esteemed and veteran classical engineer) won a gramophone award with 451s...so youll be fine what you have.. Schoeps are not the be all end all, though that is a popular rumour.

[roonsbane]

451's for recording acoustic music is a disaster compared with schoeps or DPA's 99.999% of the time. But the thought of having to use them had several regular classical engineers in stitches recently just contemplating the thought of it.
A DISASTER!

Cameron

[T.RayBullard]

Originally Posted by roonsbane

451's for recording acoustic music is a disaster compared with schoeps or DPA's 99.999% of the time. But the thought of having to use them had several regular classical engineers in stitches recently just contemplating the thought of it.
A DISASTER!

Cameron

what are you talking about?

"Gramophone" award for the best 2006 US recording (DAV preamps used)
Plush seemed to do fine.

If you are good, you can make it work.

[d_fu]

Originally Posted by T.RayBullard

the jdisc gives (...) tighter LF

How so and compared to what?

Jecklin and Blumlein are vastly superior as far as "realism" goes.

Never tried Blumlein for lack of a pair of figure-of-eights, but I tend to dislike coincident techniques (MS/XY).

[d_fu]

Originally Posted by T.RayBullard

If you are good, you can make it work.

Good point. A so-so mic in the right place can sound better than an esoteric one in the wrong place...
Made an amazing-sounding accordion recording with nothing but two 451/CK5 and a Sony DAT... I don't know how it would have sounded with Schoepses, but it sounds good...

[pkautzsch]

Originally Posted by T.RayBullard

the jdisc gives every advantage of spaced omnis, with more focus, tighter LF and less hassle.

More focus than spaced omnis: maybe. If I want more focus, which is not always true.
Tighter LF than spaced omnis: don't think so. Of course, tighter LF than with cardioids. But this is due to the pressure transducer, and not to the disc.
Less hassle? It's putting up another piece. Not just a pair of mics, but also a disc. More hassle to me. And you can make all the mistakes you can make with spaced omnis (except, maybe, way too large spacings), so no advantage there.
But: I'm not saying it IS bad. Lots of good recordings use j-disc. Lots don't.
Maybe the spaced omni freakism is something typically German. Seems that nobody in Germany likes coincident setups for classical, but lots of Americans seem to be Blumlein fans.

[roonsbane]

What I mean is if you stick both the 451's and the DPA or schoeps on a one meter bar or on a jecklin disk and A/B them, the 451's will sound edgy and thin in comparison. I would post some sound files up of an orchestral recording in the coming day's doing just that but fortunately, we sold all but one of our six of 451's we had collected over the years. We kept one for high hat which is about the only instrument it sounds complimentary to over the other mics mentioned. That perceived cut of frequencies around 300-800Hz along with that HF edgyness really works well for many thick HiHats.

Cameron

[David Rick]

I've recorded plenty of cello/piano stuff, and I'm a cellist myself. I've recorded really good players and really good instruments (including a rather famous Strad).
I've used (DPA) omni's in spaced pairs, with Jecklin/Schneider disks, and directional mics in near-coincident and coincident pairs. All I can tell you is that the same thing never works twice in a row. It depends on the room, the players, the instruments, and the repertoire.

That said, I'd probably start with omni's and see if I could make them work. The smaller the room, the more likely I'd be to try them baffled instead of spaced, because standing waves will make the image jump around.

If I couldn't deal with the room, I would switch to directional mics. Owning C460's, I'd probably try the 451's first. But I'd be prepared to swap them out if they didn't work.

The main thing is to use your ears.

FWIW, here's a snippet of a live solo cello performance I recently recorded. This was recorded in a hall seating about 200 people. The mics were 15-20 feet away. I wanted a pretty focused sound, so I'd planned to use a near-coincident pair of Josephson hypercardioids. But then I heard the pizzicato sound I was getting and I elected to mix in a DPA spaced omni pair to add a bit of excitement from the room.

David L. Rick
Seventh String Recording

[Sound Chaser]

Originally Posted by roonsbane

We kept one for high hat which is about the only instrument it sounds complimentary to over the other mics mentioned. That perceived cut of frequencies around 300-800Hz along with that HF edgyness really works well for many thick HiHats.

Cameron

I tend to agree...but my opinion is a little less damning. 451's are my number one choice for hat. They also sound great on toms and while some would disagree I also like them as drum OH's.
But, close miking on acoustic instruments can produce harsh, thin results which is why the mic can also sound good on full bodied toms that can benefit from the attack with little or no EQ.
Compare it to a KM84....a world of difference and the opposite sound of a 451.
Love the KM84 on acoustic instruments and grand piano.

[thenewyear]

I have a pair of 451s they were my first proper mics years ago.

Now they have been relegated to outriggers/ambience mics or sometimes as spots. but very, very occasionally they win out over mics with superior frequency responses and superior price tags as a main pair.

Gear snobbery is so boring & only serves to highlight the ignorance of the snob.

I guess thats why I spend less & less time on GS this weather...

[roonsbane]

Neal wrote:

I have a pair of 451s they were my first proper mics years ago.

Now they have been relegated to outriggers/ambience mics or sometimes as spots

I can see using 451's as spots when you need to cut through. But there is talk going on in this thread from T Ray saying "

Schoeps are not the be all end all, though that is a popular rumour"

and I fully disagree. Comparing those against the 451's is like night and day. With acoustic instruments as a main pair 99% of the time, a schoeps, or a DPA will kick butt over the 451.

Cameron

[T.RayBullard]

It is fine to disagree...but "better" is in the eye of the beholder..

"kick butt" to who??you maybe. but you arent me, so dont speak for myself nor anyone else on the board when making your statements... As I pointed out, Plush here(who has a very nice mic locker) won a grammophone award using 451s>>>DAV preamps..

I own schoeps, DPAs, gefells, coles, beyer, neumanns, akgs.. the thing is to know when to use a certain mic and when to use something different.

what you have stated is an opinion, based on your own experience..and that is fine..BUT opinion is not fact. lets not confuse the two. generalizations are wrong 99% of the time. This is one of those times.

Would hate to see some new engineer take these sorts of opinions as facts and use them as some sort of basis for how he/she should approach their own recordings..

Are you saying the schoeps ARE a be all end all solution ??Of course that is dead wrong. if that were the case, every engineer would use nothing but!Schoeps are great for certain things, but suck on others.,same as with 451s..having variety is crucial, and what is even more crucial is not to buy into false notions of what sort of preamps and mics every "classical" or "acoustic" engineer should have or what is "better" or "best"..or anything really...there is no magic bullet, there is no perfect mic, NOTHING is a given. until we all have the same ears, nothing is certain.

The only thing that is certain is that people need to know their craft ,so that they may know how to react with the right tools, and are mentally equipped to wade through the massive swamps of audio bullshit...

Originally Posted by roonsbane

Neal wrote:



I can see using 451's as spots when you need to cut through. But there is talk going on in this thread from T Ray saying " and I fully disagree. Comparing those against the 451's is like night and day. With acoustic instruments as a main pair 99% of the time, a schoeps, or a DPA will kick butt over the 451.

Cameron