Mics for decca tree

[tamasdragon]

I need some suggestion. What microphones would you recommend for decca tree?
The budget is not high. So not big neumanns, brauners.

Tamas Dragon

[T.RayBullard]

Originally Posted by tamasdragon

I need some suggestion. What microphones would you recommend for decca tree?
The budget is not high. So not big neumanns, brauners.

Tamas Dragon

AT 4050s..

[tamasdragon]

Are they really that good(4050)? I thought that the original decca recommends small diaphragms. But I can be wrong. Have you heard them in a situation? (maybe not in decca, but some the like)

Tamas Dragon

[C.Lambrechts]

I'm pretty sure the guys from Abbey Road use M50's. At least last time I saw them on location recording a symphony orchestra.

Here's an interesting paper on Decca Tree / surround combo's.

http://www.wesdooley.com/pdf/Surroun...ree-urtext.pdf

[sedohr]

Well, they originally used M49 and M50 for Decca trees (and still do) so LD are perfect.

Kalli

[T.RayBullard]

Originally Posted by tamasdragon

Are they really that good(4050)? I thought that the original decca recommends small diaphragms. But I can be wrong. Have you heard them in a situation? (maybe not in decca, but some the like)

Tamas Dragon

they started with m49/ m50, then moved to KM 56 .

LDs are what most use. though there are no set rules..yes, 4050s are great. i record strictly acoustic/classical material so dont know how theyd sounds outside of that context.

what is your budget anyway?

[d_fu]

Originally Posted by T.RayBullard

AT 4050s..

Dunno... I'd think this would work best with true pressure transducers. The original Decca Tree was built around the Neumann M50, which is a pressure transducer (omni) and no LDC... [Edit: It seems the first ones were in fact built with M49 and KM56, the M 50 came later, see http://mixonline.com/recording/appli...o_decca_tree/]

BTW, a recent test in a german pro audio magazine (http://www.professional-audio.de/) just compared a couple of LDCs and measured quite a treble peak on the 4050... Never tested one myself, so I was wondering. Could the 4050 have such a treble boost? I thought it was fairly neutral...

[tamasdragon]

Sometimes magazine reviews are not so objective if you see what I mean.

Anyway 4050 seems to fit in the budget, and to be honest I love other mics from audio technica, so probably 4050 will be the winner.

Thanks
Tamas Dragon

[T.RayBullard]

Originally Posted by tamasdragon

Sometimes magazine reviews are not so objective if you see what I mean.

Anyway 4050 seems to fit in the budget, and to be honest I love other mics from audio technica, so probably 4050 will be the winner.

Thanks
Tamas Dragon

yeah, magazines arent a reliable source of info..even TapeOp is starting to show the effects.. theory and practice do not always go hand in hand..actually it has been my experience that about 50% of the time, they absolutely DO NOT go hand in hand..

and if the 4050s dont work for the tree..well you have mics that will work on damn near anything and sound good anyway!

[mds]

Poor man's (well, middle classed man's maybe) M50 can be had by getting KM53s and building a sphere around them a la M50. I think you may even be able to purchase the sphere from Neumann...that is probably well out of the price range of someone looking at 3 4050s....

Anyone try this with earthworks mics? I made some really nice recordings with old B&Ks back in the day and the earthworks always LOOKED like a knockoff...I still want some DPAs at some point...

Teddy, what are you using for decca tree these days? Some Gefell assortment?

[d_fu]

Originally Posted by tamasdragon

Sometimes magazine reviews are not so objective if you see what I mean.

I know... I was just referring to their frequency response measurements in comparison to the other mics in the test. 4050 and one other mic (don't recall which) had a rather strong treble peak... As I said, I found that surprising...

[d_fu]

Originally Posted by mds

I think you may even be able to purchase the sphere from Neumann...

These spheres are available at a fairly reasonable price for the KM 130/131 mics.
They won't quite turn the mic into a (TL)M (1)50, but they do something...

[Don S]

Originally Posted by d_fu

Dunno... I'd think this would work best with true pressure transducers. The original Decca Tree was built around the Neumann M50, which is a pressure transducer (omni) and no LDC... [Edit: It seems the first ones were in fact built with M49 and KM56, the M 50 came later, see http://mixonline.com/recording/appli...o_decca_tree/]

That's what I thought, M50 was a SD. How about simply renting a set of mics like Schoeps with the MK21 caps. I've seen them quite a bit on a tree. That might have been why they came out with them. Teddy would know for sure!

[T.RayBullard]

for the decca tree, I use a DPA 4006 matched trio with the pressure balls.

Mike, for general purpose close micng work like you are doing, the Gefell mk221 with josephson c617s are much better than these DPAs....I use the DPAs for one purpose only...Decca tree...they rarely come out for anything else.

Originally Posted by mds

Poor man's (well, middle classed man's maybe) M50 can be had by getting KM53s and building a sphere around them a la M50. I think you may even be able to purchase the sphere from Neumann...that is probably well out of the price range of someone looking at 3 4050s....

Anyone try this with earthworks mics? I made some really nice recordings with old B&Ks back in the day and the earthworks always LOOKED like a knockoff...I still want some DPAs at some point...

Teddy, what are you using for decca tree these days? Some Gefell assortment?

[T.RayBullard]

Originally Posted by Don S

That's what I thought, M50 was a SD. How about simply renting a set of mics like Schoeps with the MK21 caps. I've seen them quite a bit on a tree. That might have been why they came out with them. Teddy would know for sure!

Hey Mr. S

schoeps created the KA 40 and ka 50 (40mm and 50mm respectively) sphere mounts for this purpose...gives a bit of directionality/focus to their omnis.

peter drefahl also makes the mounts.

[MJGreene Audio]

For bigger budget stuff at bigger studios I choose:

M-50's
C-12's in Omni or Cardiod (Sweet but finding 3 that sound the same is hard)
MKH-80 or MKH 800,
MKH-20's,
Scheops,
B & K,

Lower budget:

U--87, (Workhorse)
TLM-103, (Can be bright and edgy but work well)
AT-4060, (Seemed to have a bit of off axis smear and phase)
414's (Works great but not very exciting. They are just 414's after all)
Earthworks, (loved the flat sound but didn't really have the width that I would like. Probably the room but I love these mic's)

I always experiment with cardiod and omni depending on the room and the focus I need on the group. Even though the traditional approach is omni it doesn't alway work in some rooms and it depends on how close to the wall you are.

I would actually bet the 4050 would work really well. I have a bunch of clients that have purchased them for their home studios and the tracks from them sound really great.

Michael Greene

[pkautzsch]

Typical Tree mics are the M50, and everything else with that sphere around the diaphragm. M150, TLM 50, that is. All Neumann. That's the original version. Today, the Tree is often done with other mics as well.
The point about all that sphere stuff is making a pressure transducer more directional whilst adding presence. Spheres work ONLY with pressure transducers, since they will shut off the rear openings of cardioids/wide cardioids. Thus:
Neumann have a sphere for KM130/131/183 called SBK.
Schoeps have the same for the MK2 in 40 and 50 mm, and of course, in Nextel grey.
DPA have them in 3 sizes: APE 30, APE 40, APE 50.
I have seen home-made wooden spheres. I have used home-made styro spheres, with good results, on my KM183s and on MBHO omnis.

Instead of LDCs I'd rather recommend middle-class SDCs if the budget is not enough for Neumann. MBHO are great for their money, nearly Schoeps sound for half the price.

[klaukholm]

I would suggest renting 3 M150's for the session.
The poor man's substitute is 3 DPA 4003 with APE's

[dave-G]

Originally Posted by MJGreene Audio

MKH-80 or MKH 800

Great suggestion .. they do Decca Tree very nicely in the wide cardioid (subcardioid) position.

4003s with the 50mm or 40mm APEs on them is also a really nice, detailed sound with ballsy low-end.

-dave

[T.RayBullard]

dont get pigeon holed into "this or that" because it has always been done that way....go with your budget and what you are familiar with.
and though the 4050 is technically classified an LDC, the diaphragm is only about 5/8 " across. it is practically an SDC.. to me, renting is like pissing money away..making another mans wallet fat. buying is smarter, in my mind.

sure m50s were associated with the tree, and the m150s are used a lot, but hell...why confine yourself to another mans imposed boundaries? break on through to the other side..

man, ive done all sorts of combinations, from using my mentors m50s to schoeps to sennheisers...they all work. nothing may sound like the m50s, but that isnt a bad thing...

like M Greene suggested, there is more than one way to skin this cat, or **** this goat. or ..etc..



and to the folks suggesting neumann or whatever have perhaps ignored his first requirement??
THE BUDGET IS NOT HIGH

adapt.overcome.evolve

that is what made those old Engineers great..they improvised and created instead of going by a blasted textbook!

[MJGreene Audio]

that is what made those old Engineers great..they improvised and created instead of going by a blasted textbook!

Great quote but actually that is what makes any generation of engineer great. Going into a room, using whatever is there even if the gear is sub standard, using your ears and getting great results. It is an eye opening experience when you see it happen. It always makes me feel like a beginner when I get to see one of my engineer friends do that.

Gear is great but using your ears and thinking about it is better.

sure m50s were associated with the tree, and the m150s are used a lot, but hell...why confine yourself to another mans imposed boundaries? break on through to the other side..

man, ive done all sorts of combinations, from using my mentors m50s to schoeps to sennheisers...they all work. nothing may sound like the m50s, but that isnt a bad thing...

Exactly. There are just a million combinations that will work on one level or another.

adapt.overcome.evolve

That should be everyone's mantra

Michael Greene

[T.RayBullard]

Originally Posted by pkautzsch

nearly Schoeps sound for half the price.

highly debateable. and how does something "nearly" sound like something else??

not to say that MBHOs arent good, but they sound nothing like Schoeps SDCs..

my experience is that they are almost painfully bright. (the KA series)

[hughesmr]

Originally Posted by Don S

That's what I thought, M50 was a SD. How about simply renting a set of mics like Schoeps with the MK21 caps. I've seen them quite a bit on a tree. That might have been why they came out with them. Teddy would know for sure!

I know that Alex Kosiorek, house engineer for the Cincinnati Symphony Orchestra at Music Hall, uses 3 DPA wide cards in a small (1m by .5m) tree as the main array for the orchestra. He has flanking and hall omnis, too, but wide cards in a tree are the bread 'n buttah.

Mike

[mds]

Originally Posted by T.RayBullard

for the decca tree, I use a DPA 4006 matched trio with the pressure balls.

Mike, for general purpose close micng work like you are doing, the Gefell mk221 with josephson c617s are much better than these DPAs....I use the DPAs for one purpose only...Decca tree...they rarely come out for anything else.

Sounds good...I haven't used any DPA labeled mic, but I used B&K 400* mics like crazy when I was mostly doing orchestra and chamber work. Loved them then...

[pkautzsch]

Originally Posted by T.RayBullard

highly debateable. and how does something "nearly" sound like something else??

not to say that MBHOs arent good, but they sound nothing like Schoeps SDCs..

my experience is that they are almost painfully bright. (the KA series)

By "nearly" I mean "they play in the same league": They sound much more similar to Schoeps as to the current Neumann SDCs, for example. Of course there *is* a difference, nobody denies that. But to me it's rather a matter of taste and of placement in other mics' context.
If you find the MBHOs too bright, what about Neumann KM100/180 series then? Those are a lot brighter. Same as quite some Gefell SDCs.

[d_fu]

Originally Posted by pkautzsch

If you find the MBHOs too bright, what about Neumann KM100/180 series then? Those are a lot brighter. Same as quite some Gefell SDCs.

I tested an MBHO omni pair quite a long time ago and also found them far too bright, also for use with my Clara. Even my diffuse field AKG 460s sound less bright...

And I bought a single MBC 410 on ebay out of a whim (for € 120, what the heck...). Sent it in to MBHO to have it modified into a free-field omni. They sent it back with an individual frequency response graph which still shows a very pronounced 8k peak (almost 10 dB...).

I'm not complaining, though, they were kind enough to do the modification for me free of charge. I'll surely find uses for the mic here and there.

[T.RayBullard]

Originally Posted by pkautzsch

By "nearly" I mean "they play in the same league": They sound much more similar to Schoeps as to the current Neumann SDCs, for example. Of course there *is* a difference, nobody denies that. But to me it's rather a matter of taste and of placement in other mics' context.
If you find the MBHOs too bright, what about Neumann KM100/180 series then? Those are a lot brighter. Same as quite some Gefell SDCs.

I havent used any of the pencil condensors from neumann too much. Obviously we all hear things differently, and MBHO are obviously well built microphones with a good background, they were just too sharp for my taste.

[Adebar]

I haveheardgood sounding Decca Tree recordings made with 3 Gefell UMT70 in omni position. These Gefells are affordable too.

The LD mics in omni become narrower on high frequencies than SD omni mics. That helps to support the idea of the Decca Tree.

[pkautzsch]

Originally Posted by Adebar

The LD mics in omni become narrower on high frequencies than SD omni mics. That helps to support the idea of the Decca Tree.

Just for completeness: LDs in omni become sort-of figure eight in hihger range, whereas "eyeballed" SDs become sort-of cardioids in that range. Of course, one can use that rear lobe of the "eightish" LD omni creatively, and even in a Decca sense considering that they sometimes used outrigger mics pointing inward (ie the left outrigger pointing somewhere to the right side and vice versa). So the trading effect induced by rear lobes would actually not be that evil.

[matyas]

Has anyone tried the Bova Ball spherical mics for this? I think they're omni SDCs, mounted in spheres, so they've kind of got the pressure-gradient thing happening. I've seen them used as drum overheads in a rock context, but I think they're supposed to be pretty quiet, so they might be good for classical.