Working with FOH on Live Recordings

[Jimbo]

I recently picked up an additional Metric Halo 2882 -- didn't really need it, but it was a steal

So, I have enough channels (18) now to consider small/midsize venue, live recording.

It seems that most people either 1. split the microphone feed between the FOH console and the recording gear, or 2. take the direct outs from the FOH console.

Option one allows the recording engineer to use his own front-end, but requires costly splitters. Option two saves dough on the splitters, but tethers the signal-chain to the FOH circuitry.

Has anyone ever negotiated with the FOH engineer to allow the FOH console to take the outputs of the recording chain. That is, the mics route through the recording gear, then out to the FOH console.

This is done quite easily, and reliably, with the MH boxes.

I can imagine most FOH guys would be a little suspicious of the voo-doo recording chain crapping the signal to his board, but I'd like to know if this has been done.

If so, how did you negotiate it? What were the circumstances (e.g., really small venue, easily amused FOH guy, bribe)

Thanks folks,

- Jim

[tnjazz]

I've done this a couple of times, but never with FOH. Always with the monitor feed. Running it through the recording gear prior to FOH could have potentially disastrous consequences. At least a monitor feed crash wouldn't take down the whole show.

By the way, I'm looking for a second 2882 too. Any more "steals" out there Jimbo?

Dirk

[bishopthomas]

Not to hijack the thread, but I think this question goes right along with it: What about remote preamps that are shared by FOH and record world? How do you talk a house guy into giving up control of his very easy to reach and see console preamps?

[Jimbo]

Originally Posted by tnjazz

I've done this a couple of times, but never with FOH. Always with the monitor feed.

So, the mic signals were split between FOH and Monitor, and you ran the monitor split through the recording chain before it hit the monitor console? That's a good idea. However, I think the venues I'm currently looking at wouldn't have that robust a monitor setup.

Originally Posted by tnjazz

By the way, I'm looking for a second 2882 too. Any more "steals" out there Jimbo?
Dirk

This one was posted on the MIOList.....I got lucky.

Thanks,

- Jim

[tnjazz]

Originally Posted by Jimbo

So, the mic signals were split between FOH and Monitor, and you ran the monitor split through the recording chain before it hit the monitor console? That's a good idea. However, I think the venues I'm currently looking at wouldn't have that robust a monitor setup.

- Jim

Yes. Into my recording setup, then line outputs to the line inputs on the monitor console. I did this a couple of times before I went ahead and dropped the coin on a splitter.

Odds are you'll have a tough time selling the FOH on running through your gain stage first. You never know until you ask, I guess!

Good luck,
Dirk

[rmx16]

Jimbo
Why not take the FOH console's direct out? I've used the direct outs on a Midas "Venice" into my 2882's with excellent results.

Rob

[Jimbo]

Originally Posted by rmx16

Jimbo
Why not take the FOH console's direct out? I've used the direct outs on a Midas "Venice" into my 2882's with excellent results.

Robk

With a Midas Venice -- Hell yeah! thumbsup

I'm addressing potential situations like smaller venues that have not-so-good consoles.

Your point, though, is well taken. I'll keep in mind that many smaller venues will have good consoles whose amp circuits certainly won't be the weak link in the chain.

Thanks,
- Jim

[pkautzsch]

Did that once with a Big Band. Only four FOH mics, rest were only for recording. Reason was the one-way multicore which simply didn't allow him to send any signal out of the desk except those two monitors they had (and needed) on stage. Me sitting backstage.
Worked fine, except for that musician pulling the plug of my complete setup when entering the stage. Signal was back quickly however.

[Andrew B.]

Originally Posted by pkautzsch

Did that once with a Big Band. Only four FOH mics, rest were only for recording. Reason was the one-way multicore which simply didn't allow him to send any signal out of the desk except those two monitors they had (and needed) on stage. Me sitting backstage.
Worked fine, except for that musician pulling the plug of my complete setup when entering the stage. Signal was back quickly however.

Multicores are never really "one way" provided you have a gender changing adaptor or two to hand....

Andrew

[ODZ]

for the purist multitrack, I'd say go the splitter route. Not-so-good systems might not be using the inserts as they should, you could possibly derive a "direct out" from an insert send and not engage the return, though you run the possibilty of some inserts being used up......

There's always the "live-to-2trk" route, tap a pair of unused auxes and dial up your own mix?

in any scenario other than the splitter, you're at the mercy of the FOH guy's preamp settings. Some FOH like to set the faders to "U" and "mix with the pre's"......I shudder to think.

my .02

[Jim vanBergen]

A decent transformer isolated splitter is an excellent tool. In 90% of live gigs, it's your best friend.

If you can't do that in a small club, I'd Iso-transform the key mics
you HAVE to split and would put up another set of mics everywhere possible.

In small venues where I want to be discrete and not bring a 48ch splitter, I'll cheap transformer-split the vocal mics and whatever else the club uses (many small clubs don't mic bass, guitar or drums) and I can put up a set of second mics with a second 12 ch mult for those mics. Another option is a different approach: I bring preamps that have two outputs and a second snake that can feed these pre's to the FOH console. Sometimes the house sound guy in a small club is so wowed by one's gear and knowledge that he'll do anything you ask or suggest.

[Andrew B.]

If you are within range of the UK, there is a good guy over here who makes mic splitters of good quality for very little money: £210 for 8 channels in a 2U rackable format, including tax and delivery. His active DI boxes are also excellent (I have 10 of them...). He also does custom engineering if you need something unusual, and he makes up custom cables if you are feeling lazy.

Orchid Electronics

Andrew

[pkautzsch]

Multicores are never really "one way" provided you have a gender changing adaptor or two to hand....

Well, when everything is fixed by one biiiiiiiiig connector to the house desk's inputs, you can't really get any signal back from the desk except for those already connected. Especially when the desk is built into a housing so nobody touches the connections.

[bishopthomas]

FOH consoles rarely have multipin inputs. The multipin on the snake connects to a fantail which plugs into each individual XLR in the console. Not having access to the input section of a console is a terrible idea for fixed installs and completely unheard of in portable applications.

[lampmeister]

Originally Posted by Andrew B.

If you are within range of the UK, there is a good guy over here who makes mic splitters of good quality for very little money: £210 for 8 channels in a 2U rackable format, including tax and delivery. His active DI boxes are also excellent (I have 10 of them...). He also does custom engineering if you need something unusual, and he makes up custom cables if you are feeling lazy.

Orchid Electronics

Andrew

Brilliant! Just what I've been looking for!

Cheers Andrew.

Dave.

[roonsbane]

I have used our grace remote pre's on the stage before our 56 jensen splitters on one occasion. Having done it once, I wouldn't do it again for a number of reasons. first off the splitters aren't really designed for line level though they can take just enough level so you probably wont hear any problems. Also, without a really good sound check, everytime you I made a gain adjustment (even between pieces) I felt like I was screwing the house guy. On the shows I do often there are several completely unrelated groups on the same program and often I get no soundcheck. I am moving way too fast on these shows to be letting the house guy know about every adjustment on so many preamps. Also, once the signal is at line level, it really is best to come in the FOH console's TRS line inputs rather than pad the mic inputs. I always try to avoid pads, but that might just be me. It's not always an easy task to find that many XLR to TRS adapters. My normal operation is, one grace is at the top of the hall where the mic reelers terminate in the ceiling. These mics rarely go to FOH, but they could either through mults or splitters patched in. The other three graces reside after the jensen's in our patching room.

I wouldn't consider not using the transformers! Save up the cash or rent one.

Cameron

[Jimbo]

Thanks for the replies.

Looks like I should seriously consider getting one of those Whirlwind 16 channel transformer isolated splitters w/ ground lift -- ~$900

Boy, that's not a sexy gear purchase at all

For the meantime, I'll work with direct outs, if it's a nice console.

- Jim

[henryrobinett]

I do this all the time. Though you need to be friends with the FOH guy. The problem is once the mic pre levels change you screw up FOH and monitors.

But as you said the 2882 MHLabs gear is perfect for spitting the signal. I have an 2882 and ULN-2 with Motu 2408mkII feedinginto the 2882 via adat optical. I can split the outputs of all to the FOH and works well as long as I don't change the settings.

[Jimbo]

Hi Henry,

I'm glad to know that you were able to negotiate this config with the FOH guy.

I was thinking that if I needed to change preamp levels during a show, I could compensate by adjusting gain to the outputs of the MIO. Then the FOH shouldn't need to change a thing...there would just be a quick dip/jump in the levels

Thanks,

- Jim