Know it all clients

[reflexon]

I am not usually a griper, but this weekend got me angry.

So I was mixing monitors and a string quartet comes in to play on some songs during the show with a large band. Cool. We get them miked up and start setting pres and eqs. I am getting levels, everything is cool, when, all of the sudden, the leader of the vocalists comes up, pushes me out of the way, and starts grabbing faders. I almost lost it. I really felt like saying, "wow, you look pretty good at this, have a great show," and leaving. He thought that I was going to put the strings in the mix like they were while I was setting the pres. So, he wasted the rest of my tuning time, and the strings distorted in the singers ears several times during the show because of it. That singer wasn't even singing on that song!!!!

There are times when I want to walk away from stuff like that, but I really need the dough from that gig. I know he wasn't intentionally being an ass, but come on, thats what I am being paid to do there. I don't go into a barber shop walk up to one of the stylists, grab their scissors and tell them how to cut hair. Especially when they are washing it and haven't started cutting.

Maybe I took it too personally.

[amost]

You know a monitor engineer is just the most thankless job. Everybody can do it better. Tough gig, I wouldn't want it.

[7 Hz]

Originally Posted by amost

You know a monitor engineer is just the most thankless job. Everybody can do it better. Tough gig, I wouldn't want it.

I'll go one further, stuff being any kind of live engineer!

Not that it's not a good job worth doing, just too on the edge for me, and too many people treating you like dirt.

[PoorGlory]

I love mixing monitors. The musicians are much more thankful when you do a good job than the audience is when you're mixing FOH. That, and I don't take shit from musicians in the first place. They don't ever, I mean EVER touch my desk. Period.

[De chromium cob]

Originally Posted by PoorGlory

I love mixing monitors. The musicians are much more thankful when you do a good job than the audience is when you're mixing FOH. That, and I don't take shit from musicians in the first place. They don't ever, I mean EVER touch my desk. Period.

Yeah, if someone tried to push me out of the way while I was doing monitors, they would be in for a very rude awakening! I don't care who it is.

I love the fly by the seat of your pants aspect of live sound, both monitors and FOH. I started out as a studio engineer, then ran a live sound company for years and went back to studio recording 6 or 7 years ago. Now I'm getting the urge to get back to mixing FOH again..... I guess I get bored easily! Its all good.

You should have run that guys monitor mix through an Eventide pitch shifter just to fukk with him after being treated so rudely!

[DontLetMeDrown]

Originally Posted by reflexon

I am not usually a griper, but this weekend got me angry.

So I was mixing monitors and a string quartet comes in to play on some songs during the show with a large band. Cool. We get them miked up and start setting pres and eqs. I am getting levels, everything is cool, when, all of the sudden, the leader of the vocalists comes up, pushes me out of the way, and starts grabbing faders. I almost lost it. I really felt like saying, "wow, you look pretty good at this, have a great show," and leaving. He thought that I was going to put the strings in the mix like they were while I was setting the pres. So, he wasted the rest of my tuning time, and the strings distorted in the singers ears several times during the show because of it. That singer wasn't even singing on that song!!!!

There are times when I want to walk away from stuff like that, but I really need the dough from that gig. I know he wasn't intentionally being an ass, but come on, thats what I am being paid to do there. I don't go into a barber shop walk up to one of the stylists, grab their scissors and tell them how to cut hair. Especially when they are washing it and haven't started cutting.

Maybe I took it too personally.

Wow. I suppose he couldn't have just asked you to turn them down. I would have cranked the mix in that ****ers monitor. I like the Eventine idea too!

[seaneldon]

I tend to lean towards the "I HATE YOU" end of the spectrum when I run into a fellow or lady who moves a microphone or two that I spent an hour or more placing, before saying "The sound comes out of the HOLE of the guitar, man! What are you doing?" or "This is how the guy at the Knitting Factory mics my guitar and I want this album to have a LIVE feel!"

[reflexon]

Originally Posted by PoorGlory

I love mixing monitors. The musicians are much more thankful when you do a good job than the audience is when you're mixing FOH. That, and I don't take shit from musicians in the first place. They don't ever, I mean EVER touch my desk. Period.

I agree, and normally, this particular singer loves my mixes(he did that night too). He has never come close to doing anything like this in the 8 months or so we have been working together. I am pretty over it. I might bring my eventide in for our next show. I think all of the outputs of the 5d are being used, but I'm sure I can patch it in creatively somehow . That would be hillarious. Great idea!

[donsolo]

I have that in the studio. ALL THE TIME.

Just yesterday, I'm working on guitar sounds, I get a nice sound in mono and what do I do? I pan it left n right evenly in front of the guy, "Let's just check that in mono fold down to be sure" I didn't move a god damn thing except pan. "Hmm, it seems to lose some high end." No shit, that's why I panned it...so each sound is completely audible. It's not that there's fewer high frequencies, it's that the bass is DOUBLED there so it seems that way, but it was very important for his guitar to sound "Full"

He also insisted on listening to his tone in Mono...all the time
then bitching about the reverb. That's a psychoacoustic effect as*hole. Did it to me when tracking too "that's too much reverb" "Well, the band's not playing right now, you're going to lose a lot of that ambiance when the drums are in" "that's a lot of reverb." DID YOU NOT HEAR ME? The violinist got it. Of course, this guy also wants a "Live sound" Dead but live....

Is it me?

He really wants to mix this project himself...maybe I should let him.

[FalconerHK]

If it wasn't for all these damn clients my life would be SIMPLE.

I had that situation once on a video project. Dude starts dicking with my jog dial in the middle of an edit so he can "get context on the whole piece."

I just stared at him unblinkingly and said nothing until he shuffled back to the couch WHERE HE BELONGED. That's MY shit and don't EVER touch my shit. That's why it's "my shit" and not "your shit". Keep your muthafonkin' dickbeaters off of MY SHIT.

MY Shit. MY SHIT.

If I invite you over for dinner it doesn't mean you have the automatic right to grope my wife (or dog, or kids if your name rhymes with "Holey" or has an "R" and the name of a state after it).

It's as big of a personal space violation as if I was taking a piss in a public restroom and the dude next to me reached over to try to help me with the shake...

[Jules]

I clash very badly with 'know it all' types in the studio...

[XSergeantD]

Unfortunately the flipside happens also (maybe not flipside) basically I think we're all in agreement that it'sbetter when everyone does their own job:
The John Legend live show here was cancelled due to the weather and moved to be filmed and tracked live inside the studio. The monitors guy started fiddling with the console while things were being mic'd, so a meeting was had and it was made clear that the recording engineer thats been doing this stuff for 25-30 years would be tracking and mixing, not the monitors guy. So, as the rushed setup goes on, the monitor engineer finds his way back into the engineers seat and proceeds to track the session, then decides he can mix it. I had left during breakdown and came back after getting sooome sleep at home to see the monitor engineer just leaving. I ask the assistant how it went. Well, he mixed the concert 3 separate times overnight (oh, the taping ended somewhere around 3am). I'm thinking maybe it was OK. Nope, iTunes hears it and has the engineer with all the experience try to make somehting usable out of what I believe he said was one of the most difficult recording he's had to work on.
So even when there are specific direction given, those that may think they know how to do everyones job will still pay no attention to directions and experience.
I haven't heard the final product, but iTunes should be releasing it by the end o the month I imagine.

[kingneeraj]

Originally Posted by XSergeantD

Unfortunately the flipside happens also (maybe not flipside) basically I think we're all in agreement that it'sbetter when everyone does their own job:
The John Legend live show here was cancelled due to the weather and moved to be filmed and tracked live inside the studio. The monitors guy started fiddling with the console while things were being mic'd, so a meeting was had and it was made clear that the recording engineer thats been doing this stuff for 25-30 years would be tracking and mixing, not the monitors guy. So, as the rushed setup goes on, the monitor engineer finds his way back into the engineers seat and proceeds to track the session, then decides he can mix it. I had left during breakdown and came back after getting sooome sleep at home to see the monitor engineer just leaving. I ask the assistant how it went. Well, he mixed the concert 3 separate times overnight (oh, the taping ended somewhere around 3am). I'm thinking maybe it was OK. Nope, iTunes hears it and has the engineer with all the experience try to make somehting usable out of what I believe he said was one of the most difficult recording he's had to work on.
So even when there are specific direction given, those that may think they know how to do everyones job will still pay no attention to directions and experience.
I haven't heard the final product, but iTunes should be releasing it by the end o the month I imagine.

Yes, I guess after setting up for the live show for 10 hours and later tracking the band for 6 hours (while drinking at least 8 beers), he must have thought his ears were fresh enough to mix those songs that night. He was on the gig for 2 weeks!! and considered himself one of the top studio engineers in the industry, ONLY because he had been "working in this industry for over 30 years"...yet, nobody had heard of him...

He didn't realize he was dropping names left and right to that experienced engineer and telling him that he has assisted all the legendary mixing engineers... he must have had NO idea that the experienced engineer was good friends with all these "legendary mixing engineers" he kept talking about...

We'll see how much longer he has that job....

[donsolo]

alright, so I show the client my mix after working with the tracks

"Yeah, it sounds ok, can you give it some more juice?"
My ears are hurting...
"Yea, the bass sounds like it's on the edge of clipping"
You're distorting my speakers
"maybe it's your preamp"
"We can try retracking it"
"no...it's ok"

It's a Lakland bass, that's how those things sound. I used a crystal clear pre on that MF and you're saying maybe my preamp is giving it that sound, pay me and get out.

My fiance and cohort in crime is in the room with sheer amazement.

A. The kid's damn near deaf before 21
B. THIS is supposed to be someone who wants to do MY job for a living (PM me for a clip)
C. When his band member was there, he STFU because the other guy was like "damn that's a nice sound"

WTF

[Infernal Device]

God, if I even started talking about all the times.....it would be the longest post in history.

Everyone is an expert, but not a single one of them knows what they want.

It seems as though everyone knows how THEY should sound, but nobody wants to step up to the plate on how THE BAND should sound.

[Musiclab]

Originally Posted by donsolo

I have that in the studio. ALL THE TIME.

Just yesterday, I'm working on guitar sounds, I get a nice sound in mono and what do I do? I pan it left n right evenly in front of the guy, "Let's just check that in mono fold down to be sure" I didn't move a god damn thing except pan. "Hmm, it seems to lose some high end." No shit, that's why I panned it...so each sound is completely audible. It's not that there's fewer high frequencies, it's that the bass is DOUBLED there so it seems that way, but it was very important for his guitar to sound "Full"

He also insisted on listening to his tone in Mono...all the time
then bitching about the reverb. That's a psychoacoustic effect as*hole. Did it to me when tracking too "that's too much reverb" "Well, the band's not playing right now, you're going to lose a lot of that ambiance when the drums are in" "that's a lot of reverb." DID YOU NOT HEAR ME? The violinist got it. Of course, this guy also wants a "Live sound" Dead but live....

Is it me?

He really wants to mix this project himself...maybe I should let him.

I have a client who is in my studio every week who has to get in there and do it.
For a while he would have me get a mix then come in and tear it down just to see what it is, for a while it would drive me nuts but you know what, he brings in work every week, he's comfortable here and in this climate I ain't kicking him out. So I got over it, I don't even bother getting the mix up I just tell him why waste the time, do what you want from the start. It's at least an 8 hour session once a week, so I practice patience and try to keep him happy, I pick my battles and I have a client who's been here for 8 years now. I have sessions with other clients where I get to do my thing, so I don't drive myself crazy with this guy

[donsolo]

yea this kid's gonna go elsewhere ASAP and not because of my sound or my personality (I'm actually quite polite and professional) but because he's an MP&E kid and will soon be able to book studio time in a bigger room for absolutely free. (Though Berklee's going to own his masters)

Right now he just wanted something quick and easy to submit for a live show.

I'm at a point where I'm sure he's not going to book for overdub time.

oh well, I'll make it work for a demo reel.

Of course, he's going to find out pretty damn quick about how hard this really is. It's even harder when you're trying to be on both sides of the glass.

There really is nothing wrong with the sound I acheived. It's just an example of wannabe knowitalls that want to bleed you dry for every moment you have. I don't know how many guitarists bitch about their solo sound but then STFU after I show the mix.

Did I mention that he's one of those performing arts highschool grads and a guitarist?

hmm

[donsolo]

the problem was this kid would have attempted to go for it and probably screwed up royaly.

Noone's allowed to touch my gear

[Chapiro]

That type of situation has happened to me in the studio a few times. I have a personal policy: if you touch my gear i walk! end up the session. my clients know it and mostly agree is a sensible thing. when something like that has happened to me i first try to educate the artist/musiscian or whomever it was i tell them if you chose to work with me at my studio it is i hope because of how my work sounds so please have a little faith and let me do my job or otherwise i'll suggest a different studio where youll might feel more confortable. 99% of the time this is enough for the offending person to realise they are being rude and disrispectfull towards me and solves the problem. from then on i wont tolerate that sort of behavior. its n ot a matter of being rude or offensive with the customer but of having selfrespect and control over your workspace/busisnes.

[treymonfauntre]

i get the impression from these threads that a lot of audio engineers are socially awkward.

[Jose Mrochek]

monitor engineers have the toughest gig for sure. And the most important, to me.

[Jose Mrochek]

Originally Posted by treymonfauntre

i get the impression from these threads that a lot of audio engineers are socially awkward.

musicians in general are fuked up...

[DontLetMeDrown]

LOL

Maybe we speak thru music because we are not good at speaking with others face to face

[Jose Mrochek]

Originally Posted by DontLetMeDrown

LOL

Maybe we speak thru music because we are not good at speaking with others face to face

good point : )

[donsolo]

I think I do ok. I'm very polite. When it happens, I'm just very straight ahead about why something is happening.

A Lakland bass just sounds like it's clipping. The preamp was nowhere near clipping.

I've heard clipping from my rig and I'll tell you, it's not pretty.

But what really drives me nuts is the "turn it up" mentality from musicians that don't understand the importance of preserving your hearing. As it is, on a bad day I can barely make out around 16k and that's kinda disturbing.

This is also the first time a client wasn't really really happy with my work.

The irony is that I think it's some of the best work I've ever done!

Strange.

This is why I charge for everything though, it keeps a lot of things in perspective for the musician.

It keeps them from expecting everything because they have no concept of what I'm puting in and it keeps them from expecting nothing because they're paying nothing.

I told him what my full book rate is and I quoted him is INCREDIBLY reduced price for this project (one berklee kid to another)

The difference is that I'm not really considering myself as "starting out" and even though I'm two semesters away from my degree, it's not really related to this and honestly, I don't want it to be. Those guys all have the same sound and the same mentality.

This kid really is just starting out and I'm all for it. Ask questions and I'll answer them but I get miffed when the unfounded critizism comes out (yet disappears when band members are around) It's pretty obvious that he's got a bit of a control issue.

Initially it was I would be producing the sessions and when it came down to it, he took over and I just worked as the engineer.

I'm ok with that, he is just used to having things handed to him when he wants them.

Performance kids hand over their time and effort to work with him and gain experience.
Other Berklee kids hand over their respect because of his prestegious major.
His teachers handed over direction in school.

He's just not used to getting someone else's ears on a project.

I think that might be the real problem

On the plus side, I've got another gig booked today which is going to turn out to something pretty major in terms of my time.

She is also getting my Berklee discount but at the same time, she is going to let me really produce and shape the sound. I'm pretty stoked as this is going to work nice on my demo reel.

[poncival]

Originally Posted by Musiclab

It's at least an 8 hour session once a week, so I practice patience and try to keep him happy, I pick my battles and I have a client who's been here for 8 years now. I have sessions with other clients where I get to do my thing, so I don't drive myself crazy with this guy

I know this situation all too well, after 15 years of dealing with all kinds of clients I still feel all the same frustration inside when someone insists that everything I am doing is not the way they want it to be done...

but the most important part of dealing with people whose very finickey work style is exactly the opposite of what your instincts tell you to do is learning that ...

A- you can learn a lot from these people, even if that learning is confirming that they are wrong and you are right

B- you are on the right track with the "practicing patience" idea, practicing your diplomatic skills in situations like this is crucial because after a while your instinct will be towards diplomacy (which is considered "character building") when you are confronted with major label high-dollar clients who expect everything to be the way they want it and will definitely go somewhere else if they get the vibe that you're not willing to work that way,

and MOST IMPORTANTLY,

C- wait a long time after they leave before you talk openly with your interns etc. about your frustrations with your clients, I have been lucky a couple times over the years when some of my more patience-trying clientele have returned because they forgot a notebook, phone, sunglasses, etc. and it's true that loose lips can sink ships!

No matter how nuts a client may seem to you, if they're nuts enough to give you their hard earned money to record for them, you at least have to approach it from the perspective that at least they have the wisdom to have chosen the right engineer!!! (or maybe they are truly nuts after all

Speaking of "C" I think it's important not to tell your clients about Gearslutz unless they are "qualified" because we don't necessarily want some of these folks coming on here and hearing us talking about them behind their backs... I have a lot of "stupidest things I have ever heard in the studio" posts that I am holding back because I know that some of the main characters in these stories look on here once in a while because I didn't keep my mouth shut about it...

My $2

[daback-daboot]

Originally Posted by 7 Hz

I'll go one further, stuff being any kind of live engineer!

Not that it's not a good job worth doing, just too on the edge for me, and too many people treating you like dirt.

on the OTHER side, a band generally works with countless live engineers, thus getting walked on all the time when they aren't the headlining act, & even STILL sometimes when they ARE! I've had my fair number of fantastic personality live engineers, which doesn't mean they are great at what they do, but it IS a customer service job, so being personable should be a requirement. Some bands are comprised of pure ass for members though, so it definatly goes the other way.

Basically I think its the worst when the engineer can't stand behind the system he / she's working on. At that point the band will generally think its lack of engineer ability rather than limited equiptment.

[NesNeedsGear]

Originally Posted by Jules

I clash very badly with 'know it all' types in the studio...

agreed. i tend to snap right away, give a refund, and throw them out.

[audioez]

Originally Posted by reflexon

the leader of the vocalists comes up, pushes me out of the way, and starts grabbing faders.

more reason to leave the console tape at home

[donsolo]

leave it at home?! No way, that's why you bring it in.