Live engineers vs. Studio engineers pay

[MWP]

Hope this is the right forum to post this on. If not, please move.

Does anyone know how the pay compares for an engineer mixing large concert venues vs. a studio engineering job?

Thanks,
MWP

[aussie_techie]

do the job your passionate about, if your good the work will come.

[jayfrigo]

Originally Posted by MWP

Does anyone know how the pay compares for an engineer mixing large concert venues vs. a studio engineering job?

A touring engineer can make anywhere from $300/week in a van tour with a new indie to $3,000/week plus per-diems on a good bus tour with a headliner. There are "stars" who can make more, but that's the exception, not the rule. A house guy at a club (or other small to mid-sized venue with a semi-permanent system) will generally make $50 to $150 per night depending on the size of the club, the night of the week, and the band or bands coming in on a particular night. You can also get "pick-up" work from a local sound company for similar figures per day.

Studio guys can be as low as $10/hr with no weekly guarantee of work, and above that it varies wildly. Guys with a history of real credits including a good recent track record can get $3,000/song (often eqivalent to a day's work, though you usually don't get any extra if you need to do a recall). Above $3,000 are the "star" mixers, and they get as much as $10,000 per song, and sometimes do 2 per day.

A post gig in Hollywood as a mixer on a union stage is a little over $50/hr, but there are certainly guys getting double and triple scale if they're in demand. And of course, there are the "star" mixers who get whatever the market will bear. Gigs as recordists, editors, production sound mixers, or non-union jobs can range from $15/hr to $50/hr, with an average maybe floating around $30/hr. Again, these jobs are often not guaranteeing full time hours or work every week.

Other audio engineering niches you can look into include broadcast engineering for radio or TV (including TV mixers for live shows etc), technical engineering support, special venue audio (Disney theme park type stuff), corporate or educational, systems tech for concert rigs (the guy hired by the sound company to support the rig, as opposed to the mixer usually hired by the band or management), A/V installation, or EE stuff like equipment design etc.

[PapillonIrl]

I can show up, with a system set up, tuned to the room. Soundcheck the band(s) and work a total of 4-5 hours (as long as the PA guys have got it right) for €150 - €200.

Slightly less money, for quite a bit more stress. Especially if things start going wrong.

I Prefer tracking, editing, and mixing, just a personal preferance.

Although editing for long periods makes me feel

Nathan

[PapillonIrl]

I should add that Ireland has recently somehow become one of the most expensive places in the EU to live.

A pint of Guiness here is €5.75 in Dublin.

I think the next most expensive place is Switzerland (I may be wrong) but at least you won't die on a trolley in a hospital corridor waiting to be treated for lack of beds.

Hijack. Sorry.

[MWP]

Thanks to all you guys for the replies. It is really great to have a site like this to get answers from experienced people who are willing to share their knowledge.

MWP

[camitchell]

Originally Posted by MWP

Hope this is the right forum to post this on. If not, please move.

Does anyone know how the pay compares for an engineer mixing large concert venues vs. a studio engineering job?

Thanks,
MWP

A slightly different thing..... convention business. People might be shocked at the size and scale the convention business.

Audio guys can do day rates of $250-$500 a day..... and up.

[dbbubba]

It's called CORPORATE (not convention) and most beginners and newbies never realize that a music show production is nothing in comparison to a corporate production. A large music production will usually set up in one day and tear out that night and move to the next city. A corporate event can take two or three days to set up and run for a week.

I make $200 mixing a band if I just show up and do it.
I make $300 to $350 per day plus per diem on a corporate event.

I mix bands for fun.
I make a nice living doing corporate work.
In fact, I make twice the income doing corporate shows than the highest pay studio work I have ever done!
Studios don't make any money!
I'd love to just sit in a studio again!... I'd have to sell my house and the kids would have to starve! The airmiles equal a trip to Hawaii each summer, too! Oh, I don't pay for travel either... or a room in the nicest hotels in the country.
A large corporate show running for one week costs more to produce than most studios dream of making in a year!

DAnny Brown

[lozion]

Yup...


Need my CV??

[David Lee]

I run a live music venue and do most of the live mixing myself (i love it), but if i hire out an engineer i pay generally $50 for a week night + bar tab (as long as you don't abuse it). The weekday gigs are easy, my assisstant sets up the stage and you walk in and mix. On weekends, it's $75 to $100, depending on band, how much setup there is, early load in/sound check. OR sometimes I will just say $10/hour. I'm very upfront with the scale, it varies but it's fair.

PS...BIG PS: If there are any good guys in the Los Angeles/Santa Monica area that would like to pick up some extra cash and hang out in a great venue, i'm actively searching for a good guy. If it's the right person I can guarantee one night and maybe 2 a week. It's a smaller room, nice setup though. PM me if you're interested.... sorry if i'm using this post as a bulliten board for myself, but i thought it might be appropriate.

[Samc]

dbbubba, No disrespect man, but in this business there are levels, and there are levels, know what I mean.

And at some levels your rate, plus a week in a Holiday Inn would not interest music mixers (both live and/or studio) in the least.

Don't forget that it's the PA company that sets your rate for corporate work, because the corporate client does not give a hoot about the fader jockey sitting behind the console. So long as you make sure the feedback eliminator works properly, and you whisper when you speak.

The music mixer on the other hand is usually hired by the band, and his rate depends on HIM (his credits and notoriety), and in some cases the sky is the limit.

While you might be at the top of the corporate sound game you will still have to flip your head all the way backwards to see the guys at the top of the music mixing game.

[dbbubba]

You haven't done a lot of corporate work have you SAMC?

If you think that all you do is set a feedback eliminator and whisper then you have never worked a large corporate show.
I'm not talking about working for the AV Dept. in a hotel.
Almost everything new that you see in a rock-n-roll show this day and age was developed in the corporate arena.
Who has a larger budget? IBM, CocaCola, Frito Lay, Mary Kay or a record label.

It is exactly the same as music mixing.
I have my day rate and it has been established by the fact that I am experienced and know how to make a show work which is why I get hired as an A1.
I know how a p.a. is rigged and flown.
I know how to run software that tune a line array to the room.
I know show power.
I even know a lot about lighting and stageing.

Most importantly, I know how to get on aplane and go to about any city, get to the venue, interface with the staff and make the event happen.
I've done a lot of shows.

In the rare case that I get hired as an A2, I make a bit less.

I can mix the almost any style music live or in the studio, In fact, I am mixing a big band today... live with a tap dancer and you'l hear every step he takes.
I know how to mic a tap dancer, too. Done it A LOT!

Experience m' boy.

I never turn down a decent paying gig!
That is how I have gained experience.

Danny Brown

[Flymax]

Hey Danny,
A lot of studios are making money..I've been booked solid for months..and been fortunate to be able to help put money in other musicians,engineers pockets..
knock wood..
-Pete

[thethrillfactor]

Originally Posted by David Lee

PS...BIG PS: If there are any good guys in the Los Angeles/Santa Monica area that would like to pick up some extra cash and hang out in a great venue, i'm actively searching for a good guy. If it's the right person I can guarantee one night and maybe 2 a week. It's a smaller room, nice setup though. PM me if you're interested.... sorry if i'm using this post as a bulliten board for myself, but i thought it might be appropriate.

Are there hot chicks at your music venue frequently?

If so if i were in LA i would do it just for fun, bar tab and the chicks.

[shaddai]

cool thing about live work:

nobody calls you back 2 days later & asks "Hey, what would it sound like if...." or "do you think you could do this...?"

Once your time is in, your time is in...period. Done.

Todd

[Samc]

Originally Posted by dbbubba

Almost everything new that you see in a rock-n-roll show this day and age was developed in the corporate arena.
Who has a larger budget? IBM, CocaCola, Frito Lay, Mary Kay or a record label.

Do you actually believe this! I had no idea that any of the companies you listed above...including record companies developes audio equipment.

Can you list even one piece of audio gear or technology that was specifically developed because of, or "in the corporate arena".

It is exactly the same as music mixing.

NO...It's not even close! riding the fader while the company CEO gives his speach is not the same as mixing music

I have my day rate and it has been established by the fact that I am experienced and know how to make a show work which is why I get hired as an A1.

But, unlike music mixers, it's the PA company that hires and pays you, the corporate clients don't give a hoot.

Most importantly, I know how to get on aplane and go to about any city, get to the venue, interface with the staff...

Music mixers do this everyday, it's called advancing the gig, even studio guys have to advance their gigs.

....and make the event happen

No Danny, the sound guy doesn't make the event happen; the event planners make it happen.

They tell you what time your truck should arrive; what entry you must use when you load your gear; where you can run your cables etc. They even tell you what color shirt you and the rest of the crew must wear on the day of the event.

[lozion]

Originally Posted by Samc

[b]
No Danny, the sound guy doesn't make the event happen; the event planners make it happen.

They tell you what time your truck should arrive; what entry you must use when you load your gear; where you can run your cables etc. They even tell you what color shirt you and the rest of the crew must wear on the day of the event.

That is if you're lucky enough not to wear a tie...

Originally Posted by MWP
Does anyone know how the pay compares for an engineer mixing large concert venues vs. a studio engineering job?

There are too many variables to make a direct comparison here. But the main difference is that most live engineers are paid per show, whereas in the studio, engineers are paid by the hour. For example, say you get 300$ for doing one show for the band you work for. Thats about 60$/hour for actual work (3 hours set-up/soundcheck + 2 hours/show=5hx60) for the sake of the argument. Sounds decent but this doesnt take into account road time, getting to the venue, advancing the show, other duties, etc. As for mixing large concert venues, forget about it if hired by the venue, since most if not all bands playing there will be accompanied by their engineer and what you will be doing is called babysitting ie, makin' sure that dude is happy...

In the studio, if you're working on a album this can take you from 2 weeks to who-knows... So the advantage is that its garanteed work for that given time. Studio work can be more stable than livesound earning-wise.
Now, post & broadcast, thats a whole different ballgame.
Thats where the money's at if not only because they're usually fulltime jobs...


Btw, David I pm' ya...

[Roland]

In the uk its always difficult to judge as there are not many set prices. In the pa market the "going rate" is between £100-150 for a competent, jobbing FOH engineer/monitor engineer. I do know of one company whom have a big reputation and keep it by paying for "named" engineers with track record and they were paying around £200-250 a night a couple of years back. Other touring shows with the bands own engineer are obviously negotiated, but the above figures are going to have an effect on what rates those attract, but I suspect £500 - £1,000 pw + PD's would be about the going rate.

Freelance TV sound is around £200 a day (SQN and a boom) + overtime, expenses, etc. Studio engineers rates here are appaling. I know a couple of freelancers that get around £150 a day, which given the rates that studio's are going out is probably reasonable, but as many studio's here are owner operated, rates are often deppressed. Anything above these kind of rates are negotiated fee's that usually have more to do with reputation/track record and enhanced value, i.e. use of supplied facilities like the producer/engineers own kit.

As a footnote, I did hear that one or two top acts have a reputation for paying really low touring rates based on the fact that having their name on your cv could "enhance" your reputation, it's a policy I personally strongly dissagree with, however as Dubba pointed out, often the less prestigious the job is the higher the rate.

Regards


Roland

[Henchman]

Originally Posted by jayfrigo

A post gig in Hollywood as a mixer on a union stage is a little over $50/hr, but there are certainly guys getting double and triple scale if they're in demand. And of course, there are the "star" mixers who get whatever the market will bear. Gigs as recordists, editors, production sound mixers, or non-union jobs can range from $15/hr to $50/hr, with an average maybe floating around $30/hr. Again, these jobs are often not guaranteeing full time hours or work every week.

I think those rates are a bit low.

My experience tells me that for $50,- you can't get an experienced re-recording mixer.

[Fletcher]

I have friends that make between $2k a week [club / small soft seat with a "Jazz" act, mixes FOH and tour manages] to $2500- a week for a "carries own console, new stacks and racks daily" for the next 6 weeks of "tune up tour"... then bumps to $4k/wk when the band does arenas and sheds for the next year and a half... then there is a very old friend who makes $8k/week [that's right $8,000 USD per week!! + per diem $150/day, which drops down to $4k/week when the band is on break w/no per diem... AND he can take other gigs as long as he is available the second the band snaps their fingers] on a show that did fewer than 150 shows in the last 15 months. I have other friends that are happy to pull down $150/night doing 12 channel club gigs and another friend that gets $1,250 per show with a symphony orchestra [he gets a ton of outside work and consulting stuff as well but his main gig is the orchestra].

In the studio I see ads for places for like $15/hr. "fully equipped" studios which tells me that the engineer ain't making "bank"... most of my other engineer friends are in the $500-$1,250/day range [14 hr. days, 6 days a week with 'overtime' at 'double rate' when applicable]... and another bro who will be more than happy to record for $2,500/day and mix for $5k/song [$7k for a single] but he is far more the exception than the rule.

If the purpose of your question was trying to figure out if you'll make more money on the road than in the studio the answer is generally "yes". However, the romance of living in a bus and traveling the world wears very thin after a while... even when it was all drugs and pussy all the time [which it most certainly is NOT these days] it was always a tough way to make a living.

The studio thing is in such disarray that it will be difficult to chose between building your own rig, hanging out your own shingle and starting your very own small studio while swimming with the rest of the Siamese Fighting Fish or sucking it up and cleaning toilets while you wait for someone to die so you can move up a bump.

If I had it to do all over again... I wouldn't fvcking do it!! Not in this environment, not with the level of politicing and bullshit that is out there these days... I'd probably be an auto mechanic where the money is no where near as good... the "prestige factor" is no where near as cool, but the money is constant and for the most part the work is steady [during the great work slow down of 2002-2003 I had friends that used to be able to book themselves 280-300 gigs a year sitting home watching "Days of our Lives" for months between gigs!!].

If you're hell bent on going on the road I would suggest you submit a resume to Clair Channel [Clair Bros./ShowCo] and in a few years you'll be a regular touring kinda guy... probably something of a system tech, possibly even with the genius job description of "Stage Left Fly" which means you get the stage left speaker array off the truck and into the air before the show and out of the air and back into the truck after the show... hardly the great mixer gig you had hoped for but you do get a laminate and can use it to bolster your lack of confidence while chatting up the ladies in the bar closest to the hotel on your day off... if you're hell bent on getting into the studio apply to be a tea boy/piss boy/runner at any of the 17 real studios that remain in the world and be content to watch and learn for the next few years as staff turnover moves you up the food chain via social promotion until you reach the glass ceiling imposed by "The Peter Principle".

Best of luck... BTW, ever consider farming? It's seriously necessary as everyone needs food and it's way harder to download off the internet.

[Roland]

Hey on those figures, it's best to get a gig over in the States, you can't match those figures here in blighty!

Regards


Roland

[jayfrigo]

Originally Posted by Henchman

I think those rates are a bit low.

My experience tells me that for $50,- you can't get an experienced re-recording mixer.

Low/mid 50s is indeed the union rate for Y1, a mixer (haven't seen this year's card, so not sure the exact up-to-date figure), so it's certainly a relevant and valid example of a starting point. As stated right next to it, plenty of guys make double or triple scale, and the "stars" make whatever the market will bear. However, there are plenty of guys out there mixing for scale, especially these days. If you want a gaffing mixer with a list of prominent credits, you aren't going to get one for scale, but plenty of competent and experienced guys are available. Also, remember, this includes 2nd and 3rd chair guys too. The FX and music mixers don't necessarily make as much as the gaff (dialog chair).

[Henchman]

Originally Posted by jayfrigo

The FX and music mixers don't necessarily make as much as the gaff (dialog chair).

This is true. I think that that's where the $50,- an hour rate comes from.
An experienced dialogue mixer, in most situations commnads more, because in general, it takes much longer to learn how to mix dialogue.

Not to belittle Music and SFX mixers.
I do all 3, but mostly Dialogue. Up here, the Dialogue mixer handles music and Dialogue.
The SFX handles SFX, BG's and Foley. I mosyly do Dialogue, and fill in the SFX chaor when needed.

[dbbubba]

Originally Posted by Samc

Do you actually believe this! I had no idea that any of the companies you listed above...including record companies developes audio equipment.

Can you list even one piece of audio gear or technology that was specifically developed because of, or "in the corporate arena".


NO...It's not even close! riding the fader while the company CEO gives his speach is not the same as mixing music


But, unlike music mixers, it's the PA company that hires and pays you, the corporate clients don't give a hoot.


Music mixers do this everyday, it's called advancing the gig, even studio guys have to advance their gigs.


No Danny, the sound guy doesn't make the event happen; the event planners make it happen.

They tell you what time your truck should arrive; what entry you must use when you load your gear; where you can run your cables etc. They even tell you what color shirt you and the rest of the crew must wear on the day of the event.

Again, you don't know what you are talking about SAMC!
Either that or you have had some bad experiences in the corporate world!

I was talking about ME and what I do.
I was clarifying the corporate sound experience.
You don't do it obviously because you are making HUGE assumptions about how things work.

No one tells me when the truck arrives. They might tell me when the room is booked.
The client doesn't tell me what entrance I have to use. The venue might.
The client doesn't tell me where to run cables. That is common sense.
They don't tell me what clothes to wear either.

Clients hire ME to design and implement a show.
I often design the stage and the lighting, too!
So maybe you would want to call me the technical director?
To me an "event planner" hires catering, arranges tables and decorates.
I don't worry about a title.
I make shows happen.

I have mixed HUNDREDS of bands live in clubs and arenas.
I have mixed over 100 major label acts livel over a twenty city radio network.
I have sat for THOUSANDS UPON THOUSANDS of hours in a recording studio recording everything and everyone that could open their wallet or sign a check. Bands, radio spots, TV spots, production music, SFX, ADR and a bit of foley.
I have mixed HUNDREDS of corporate events, too.
I know the difference in what is required as a mixer!
I wish it was a simple as riding gain on the CEO, but it isn't!
The average corporate event mic/line list will have more inputs than the average band mic/line list. On top of this... you'll often have a one off show for a name act that is entertainment. 32 plus inputs all week and then a full band on one night.

My point was to learn everything and do everything that is offered!
Learn it all because it all adds up.
Once you get enough experience clients hire YOU to MAKE THE SHOW HAPPEN.

Also, listern to what Fletcher says, but realize that he is not in his twenties and his friends are not just starting out. They have some experience or they wouldn't be getting those figures.

(That $150.00 per day per diem is B.S. Fletcher because if you make more than the per diem amount allowed by the I.R.S. you have to pay taxes on it, so it isn't really per diem. There isn't a city in the U.S. that the I.R.S. guidelines alllow more than about $50.00 per day. Most are between $42.00 and $46.00. If you make $4k per week AND $150 per day the IRS will tax you for the $4k PLUS anything above the maximum allowed for any given city in that "per diem" money. I know this because I WRITE PER DIEM CHECKS FOR CREWS!)

There is more money in live events.
If you are young, the thought of riding around in a tour bus might sound fun.
If you have done it and you are a normal person then one U.S. tour will convince you that it is not very fun.
I have to ride a pretty nice tour bus for three hours next Saturday and I dread the three hour trip back. VERY, VERY un-comfortable!
Then again, I am an American Airlines Platinum Advantage flier and I am a bit spoiled.
I have to get up at 4:00am on about half of the Friday mornings each year to catch the first flight out (I can go a bit later going west.)
I have to wake up at 4:00 am on most Mondays, too since I can't leave the venue quick enough to catch most Sunday night flights.
It might sound FUN to stay in a nice room at the Flamingo in Las Vegas for twentyone days, but it's not.
I don't mind staying in nice hotels (most Vegas hotels are NOT nice hotels), but I like my own house and family.
I prefer to maximize my income versus time away from home.

I'll give advice based on my experience because I have done a lot of stuff.
I am lucky in a lot of senses.
I do know what I am talking about.

Live makes more money, but you have to travel a lot to make good money at it.
I have figured out how to travel as little as possible and still make decent money.

Danny Brown

[Henchman]

dbbubba, I am so there with what you're saying.

I did a couple of Canadian and US Bus tours.
And I am so glad I didn't make it a career.
After thje 3rd time it really wore thin, in spite of the available women.
I make way more money doing audio post, and most days I am home on time for dinner.
I have a life. Don't deal with too much bullshit. And just like a live show, pretty much once we get to the end of a mix for a show, it's done.

We'll get it back soemthime sfor minor QC fixes, or a music cue chnage. But that's about it.

Oh, and the best thing about audio post?
Pretty much everythign I work on will get heard.

Unlike music stuff you can work on for 6 months, and it get's shelved.