Micing/DI Upright bass

[jdier]

I have someone coming in to play some upright bass on a project.

My only experience recording bass has been electric direct (and once DI + a small mix of the bass cab blended in from D112 mic)

This guy has an upright with a pick up in it. Any guidelines or suggestions? Any reason I can't just pretend it is an electric and just use my ears from there?

If we choose to mic the bass, what type of mic would be preferred and what is the preferred placement?

I am going to have 5 guys in one room all playing at the same time so I guess I need to be in close.

The music is americana/folk/country sounding. Not a lot of slapping or anything. Pretty straight ahead 1-5-1-5-1-5 type playing.

I am far from professional; I am just looking for some guidelines that might be able to save me some time experimenting.

Thanks,

Jim

[e-cue]

I always DI the input, and almost never use it all the way (sometimes blended in). It can be very helpful in group recording situations. I've found the Little Labs IBP to be very helpful in this situation when recording bass by itself and using the DI and mic combo. When I mic upright, I have the bassist play and move all over the place like a geeked out squirrel listening for the sweet spot. Most of the time, this is at least a step back from the instrument. Be very careful not to mic it too close. I like tracking upright in live, reflective rooms personally. The last couple times I did upright, I used a Sony800g (usually with a 1081 or AD-MP-2) which worked great. The M49, the RE20, the RCA 44BX, and AEA R84 all have worked good for me, depending on the flavor we were going for. The Earthworks and Nightpro mic pre's are also great for upright if you have access to them. You'll probably have to move members around accordingly so the bleed you get is 'good bleed', not a phasey pile of yuck. I also rarely use more than one mic (other than the DI). The ribbons probably won't work as good for what you are doing because of the mic patterns, but then again, YRMV.

[Chae Ham]

Definitely take the DI from the pick up. You can always choose to use it or lose it in the mix. Having said that whenever I mic and DI simultaneously I place the mic closer to the fingerboard to pick up the fingernoises that the DI lacks. Blending in the fingernoises gives a little personality to the muffled/stale DI sound. 9 out of 10 times I use both, and blend to taste, adjusting for phase coherence.

I like to use a large diaphram condenser on something like an upright bass. My goal is usually to pick up the higher end detail with the condenser since most pickups will pick up a lot of the bottom(or mud).

Hope that helps!

[Dave Martin]

As a bassist, I've NEVER used the DI in my upright, either in my studio or in any other. The only time I've ever used one in the studio is with Nashville bassist Byron House. He did 13 songs for me one day, and we used the DI on one song, where I wanted more of an Eddie Gomez type of sound.

My current go-to upright mics are an RCA 77DX (on my early 60's carved top Juzek) and an RCA 74B on Dennis Crouch's 50's Amerian Standard. With Byron, I used a Royer 121, which sounded much better on his bass than either of the ribbons. I've also had a Lawson L47 and a few U47's and 97's used on my bass. But I'm going to try an R84 and a Royer 122 (thanks Michael!) over the weekend.


But back to your situation - first gobos are your friend - buy some, build some or borrow some if you don't have any. Second, why not let the bassist try a few different spots in the room and find where his bass sounds the best. Work from there.

Depending on the bass (and the strings) I'll start with the mic pointed at the high side of the bridge, and anywhere from 6 inches to 3 feet from the instrument. Some basses sound best when the mic points directly at the bridge, some soundbetter when it's pointed at the high side F hole. You'll benefit by trying a few different positions.

[littledog]

Usually I don't care for mics with exagerated high end, but mic'ing basses is the exception. Something like the Gefell UM70s ends up capturing a lot of the finger articulation because of its high frequency bump.

I usually start with the mic about 6" away just below the bridge. For some reason, I find that gives me a great balance of both plucking transients and body of the tone. I rarely go near the f-hole - too boomy for my taste.

Oddly enough, I often find that the tracking sound that sounds so good to the bass player in the cue mix often results in too much low end when it comes time to mix. So it's not unusual for me to have to use a low shelf to attenuate some of the blossoming of the low frequencies at mixdown. Anyone else find that to be true?

[BattleAngel]

just to reiterate what some have said either here or in other posts, ribbon mics seem to be great for upright. My only experience micing an upright was doing it stereo with my stereo Royer, and the sound was very nice. I know a fellow here (Malice maybe?) swears by his Royer/Requisite chain for upright bass, and I imagine that is a very very sweet rig. Actually, there's a requisite pre up for grabs on the classifieds forum (not mine) if anyone has been looking for one (I have been!)

[fatty]

i've had good results blending a d.i. ( a nice fishman pickup into a good valve preamp) with an atm33 about a foot and a half back, just above the bridge, near the players right hand.

the mic is the main sound, the d.i. is blended in sparingly. it helps add sustain and articlulation.

[shikawkee]

I always record a DI track whether I use it or not. On upright I usually lose it. Try placing a ribbon mic about a foot to a foot and a half away from the bass side f-hole. Then place a 47 up around the player's hands facing down or at least a 45 degree angle. Mix to taste. This worked swimmingly on Lightning Chance's double bass which was also heard on 'Walking After Midnight' among others. I think we also did this with Dennis Crouch even when he was slapping. Dave Martin's suggestions are real good too.

[jdier]

Thanks for the responses so far. I have a little more info and am going to ask for some further advise.

The pick up is a Fishman, but I do not know anything else about it.

The mics that I will have available will be SM57, Beta57, SM58, Senn 421, Studio Projects C3 (x1) B1 (x2).

So, with that, which mic would you pick?

Also, if there is a $200 - $300 (used price) that anyone would suggest that would be perfect, I would consider it as long as it had other applications (since I do not see myself recording upright bass more than a few time between now and the end of time.)

Thanks again for all of the help.

Jim

[shikawkee]

My Beyer 260 ribbon mic was less than $350.00 new.

[bloodstone]

I know you don't have one, but I like the AKG 414BULS to mic upright bass, 1-2 feet away, about 1 foot above the bridge between the f hole and the strings. I think in the situation you're trying to work in you may have some serious bleed issues to deal with, and the DI track might save you. I'd give some thought to the possibility of needing to overdub the upright after the fact. I've never tried any of the mics you listed on upright.

You might consider the Oktava ML 52 ribbon.

[nickdabass]

The only pickup I've used on bass that sounds any good for recording DI (& is also ok for bowing) is the David Gauge. Very cheap for what is is...

My favourite mic for a true woody bass sound is an Earthworks TC30/QTC1. That usually only works in an iso booth/ overdub situation... Have had good results with Neuman M147 in ensembles.

The bass/bassist is almost always the limiting factor - some double bassists have almost no acoustic tone and rely on the pickup/amp. Your bass mic doubles as the room mic with these guys...

For me, recording mic'ed acoustic bass in a room with lots of other musicians is always about damage control.... especially if drums are in the same room. If no drums, you should be OK with good mic positioning and careful placement of the musicians. You could always go purist if the room is good enough and use stereo mic configuration on whole band plus spot mics.

Off axis response seems to be v. important in a multi mike / multi musician setup. There doesn't seem to be much discussion of the importance of a smooth off axis response... discuss?

[bakerman]

I'll be tracking some upright in the same room as drums soon and looking to use a Royer 122 on the bass behind a gobo and hopefully trying to get the drums in the null zone to minimise drum bleed - any thoughts or advice?

[leddy]

Originally Posted by bakerman

I'll be tracking some upright in the same room as drums soon and looking to use a Royer 122 on the bass behind a gobo and hopefully trying to get the drums in the null zone to minimise drum bleed - any thoughts or advice?

I've used the little SE Reflexion filter live right next to the drums with pretty good results. Not sure how a fig 8 would work in one though. I have used a Beyer M160 ribbon in it. If you picked up the Reflexion AND put large gobos up, I would think you could get some decent isolation - unless the bass player really has a weak sound.

[ajfarber]

Originally Posted by bakerman

I'll be tracking some upright in the same room as drums soon and looking to use a Royer 122 on the bass behind a gobo and hopefully trying to get the drums in the null zone to minimise drum bleed - any thoughts or advice?

Good idea. I do that with RCA77 to good results.

I always track bass next to the drums in the same room. I use two mics. A ribbon on the body of the bass and a SDC for the strings by the player's plucking hand. I NEVER have used a DI. I only mic acoustic instruments.

If the bass player has very low action and a small acoustic sound and normally plays with an amp, then you may need a DI blended in with the mic. But for a bass player with a big sound, you won't need the DI.