Audio for Video

[bishopthomas]

I am looking into starting a mobile recording business and need some help with the audio for video side of things. While it won't be my main focus, I would like to have the capability. It seems like a lot of bands are wanting DVD's made, but I have almost no knowledge of how to interface audio and video equipment. I know that I will need to be able to sync to a time code, but what equipment is standard and how does it interface?

I plan to record to PC from a Mackie Onyx 1640 mixer, but will use a hard disc recorder as a backup. I will have a truck with snakes/splitters and such, and I am planning to let the business grow naturally and not force myself into a lot of debt. Maybe video work should be part of that growth, but I hate to let so much work pass by because I know that there is a lot of video work to be had.

Thanks for your help and suggestions.

[David Spearritt]

Big topic. Lots to discuss. Firstly, timecode is not necessary. Drift with a decent camera (Pana DVX 1000 or similar) and decent audio recorder not an issue for music video. 48kHz the most useful audio sample rate.

The biggest problems of all in this work is trying to get decent software that doesn't mess with the sound, and which you can edit and burn with, without banging the head on lots of bricks. Video software is woefully badly designed. We have tried Premiere (dear god), Sony Vegas (forget it), and then you need other software to encode and compress/author/title for DVD.

Kostas Metaxas has told me Canopus Edius is the one to look at. He does a lot of HiRes video and audio for classical and jazz. http://www.metaxas.com

[Jim vanBergen]

Originally Posted by David Spearritt

Firstly, timecode is not necessary.

Wow, that's a serious statement. NO DISRESPECT intended here David, but personally, I could not disagree more. What do I know, I've only done several seasons of a major music television series for the USAs top music channel, 50 live music webcasts and a dozen commercially released DVDs, and I'm a baby in this business compared to others. For ME, Timecode is INCREDIBLY important, and I could not imagine workinng without TC. Of course, if you are doing remote recording for a music video that already HAS a track that video will sync to, you're right...because your temp mix is not going to be used. But sample rate, bit depth, word clock/video black and timecode are the MOST IMPORTANT things to get right before you get to input #1.

I find it interesting that we have such differing opinions.

Just my opinion.

jim

[bcgood]

I hate Premiere for video editing as well. I really like Pinace Studio though, it's really intuitive. As for Time Code, it really depends on how you work. I've shot a couple of music videos that I editied in Pinnacle and I simply synced the video with the song since we where playing the song while recording the different shots. Avid and Final Cut Pro are two other programs worth checking out. For the audion I really like Adobe Audition.

Best of Luck,

bcgood

[bishopthomas]

Okay, I guess I should have been more specific. I want to be able to sync an entire concert worth of audio with the video. I have no desire to do video editing, I would strictly be multitracking the audio. From what I have read, timecode IS extremely important for longer segments. Sure a 3 minute music video wouldn't stray too far, but a 2-3 hour concert probably would.

bcgood - I am using Adobe Audition. Have you upgraded to 2.0 yet? I've been holding out on it.

[bcgood]

Originally Posted by bishopthomas

Okay, I guess I should have been more specific. I want to be able to sync an entire concert worth of audio with the video. I have no desire to do video editing, I would strictly be multitracking the audio. From what I have read, timecode IS extremely important for longer segments. Sure a 3 minute music video wouldn't stray too far, but a 2-3 hour concert probably would.

bcgood - I am using Adobe Audition. Have you upgraded to 2.0 yet? I've been holding out on it.

Yes, I have 2.0 and I like it a lot. It is rock solid. I seriously think it's the best recording software you can get for a lot of reasons...

bcgood

[shaddai]

We shot a concert a couple of years ago without timecode....took the video guy FOREVER to line 3 cameras of video up to the audio, and since he wasn't a guitar player, it took another guitar player 2 days to help him straighten up multiple shots that were a few frames off before the final export for duplication. The player we were taping liked fx & reverse reverbs & such..definitely not a very efficient way to do things.

Anyway, worked with the same video guy last week and convinced him we should record a smpte track on the left channel of each of his cameras, a rough audio on the right channel, and record all of the audio we were going to use on my MDR. He wanted to test it, and after 5 minutes of seeing how it worked, we spent the next 4 days feeding each of his cameras smpte generated from my MDR. His camera had no timecode outs or ins, so we used the left audio channel instead.

How we're doing it after taping:

So, in Final Cut Pro, he impoprts all of his video, picks his shots and leaves 2 seconds before the clapper and 2 seconds after 'cut' for each shot. He then bounces the left audio channel out to me as a .wav file. I then import his .wav file to track 1 on Sonar. Set Sonar's track 1 output to Ch1 out on the Multiface and then plug it to the SMPTE jack on the MDR. Then arm tracks 2-5 in Sonar to record and plug tracks 1-4 from the MDR into inputs 2-5 on the Multiface. Set the MDR to timecode chase & click record in Sonar.

The MDR lines itself up to the time code coming to it from track 1 in Sonar and puts the audio into sonar in sync with the timecode. The 2 second extra time before the clapper is only there to allow the MDR enough time to realign to the sudden jump in timecode between each shot.

Once the video guy gets his 4 channels of audio that's in line with his own timecode, he can import it and then continue on with editing.

Todd

[shaddai]

Oh yeah...the 48khz bit is more important than you'd think. And my setup is an Onyx 1640 feeding a Mackie MDR via direct outs. I haven't hooked a laptop into the setup because my MDR has the external as well as internal drive available. I just record to the internal and backup backup to the external...as many times as possible during the day...and keep a UPS on the MDR.

Todd

[bishopthomas]

That took a few readings, but I understand what you are doing. So, the SMPTE time code can be recorded to an audio channel? Is it audible? I just assumed that it was a digital "stamp" rather than something tangible that you can hear and/or manipulate. If I'm using just a computer or hardware without a built in time code generator, is there any particular piece of gear that you would recommend?

Sorry for seeming like such a complete idiot. I would just rather come across that way on an online forum than on a job site.

[audiogeek1]

If you are locking to video, Timecode is very important. You can record timecode to a track on your software but the problem is you might drift with you audio recording a bit. This is where video black burst comes into play. It tells every one to play nicely and keeps you from drifting from the video deck.

I would look into a MOTU Digital Timepiece. This unit can accept black burst and time code and send it to your program. I do not know Audition but I assume it can accept time code.

There is nothing worse than getting video from an editor and having your audio gradually drift out of sync by a few frames. This is a major pain in the rear to fix and very time consuming. But equiping yourself properly is not super expensive and makes a world of difference.

Just some thoughts.

Mike

[Roland]

Originally Posted by David Spearritt

Big topic. Lots to discuss. Firstly, timecode is not necessary. Drift with a decent camera (Pana DVX 1000 or similar) and decent audio recorder not an issue for music video. 48kHz the most useful audio sample rate.

The biggest problems of all in this work is trying to get decent software that doesn't mess with the sound, and which you can edit and burn with, without banging the head on lots of bricks. Video software is woefully badly designed. We have tried Premiere (dear god), Sony Vegas (forget it), and then you need other software to encode and compress/author/title for DVD.

Kostas Metaxas has told me Canopus Edius is the one to look at. He does a lot of HiRes video and audio for classical and jazz. http://www.metaxas.com

I respectfully suggest that timcode is an absolute must, even if its only for reference. Sure with modern camera's you are not going to get much drift, but all video companies use it to a greater or lessor degree and if you work for any broadcaster they will insist on it.

As for video software, depending on what you are planning to do with it, if its for video editing Premiere is fine, so is Final Cut, so is Avid, (we have used both Premiere and Final Cut extensively and both work well). I wouldn't want to be doing much audio manipulation in those programme's, but for final composit from a conformed soundfile it shouldn't be any problem. As for DVD there are several dedicated programs on the market from Sonic Scenarist at the top end down to Adobe Encore at the cheaper end.

I do think you will need better gear than the Mackie, most small ob van's would have at least this already and for recording bands live I would expect you need around 24 channels as a minimum 32 channels to cover most jobs. The BBC will use up to 56 for ballet or opera jobs!

Regards


Roland

[David Spearritt]

Originally Posted by Jim vanBergen

Wow, that's a serious statement. NO DISRESPECT intended here David, but personally, I could not disagree more. What do I know, I've only done several seasons of a major music television series for the USAs top music channel, 50 live music webcasts and a dozen commercially released DVDs, and I'm a baby in this business compared to others. For ME, Timecode is INCREDIBLY important, and I could not imagine workinng without TC. Of course, if you are doing remote recording for a music video that already HAS a track that video will sync to, you're right...because your temp mix is not going to be used. But sample rate, bit depth, word clock/video black and timecode are the MOST IMPORTANT things to get right before you get to input #1.

I find it interesting that we have such differing opinions.

Just my opinion.

jim

Timecode is obviously better than no timecode and all PRO gigs use it. But if one is "starting out" as the poster suggested, and just recording concert gigs, and you record with a prosumer camera sampling at the same rate as the audio recorder, say 48kHz, then aligning dual system audio with the audio on the camera is easy even without timecode and the drift over 1 hr is negligable. I am just saying it that for this sort of gig, its not essential.

Working with other crews, multi camera, no similtaneous audio on cameras, etc, then yes its mandatory, no argument there.

[bishopthomas]

All this debate on whether it's necessary or not. Let's just assume that it is. Is there somewhere I should look to find out how it works or should I just buy a time code generator and go nuts?

[shaddai]

That took a few readings, but I understand what you are doing. So, the SMPTE time code can be recorded to an audio channel?

Yes. This is how timecode was used to keep seperate tape machines in sync in the analog days as well. Using SMPTE, I can get Sonar or my MDR to chase my Otari tape deck...or my sony cassette deck/mini disc/or DVD player for that matter. I just lose 1 channel.

Is it audible?

If you solo out that channel and listen to it it is. It sounds horrible. The only time I'd be worried about it being an issue is if you were recording to a multichannel analog tape..it could bleed to other channels.

I just assumed that it was a digital "stamp" rather than something tangible that you can hear and/or manipulate.

You can hear it, and you can manipulate it as well. You can cut it up, rearrange it or whatever you'd like. Just allow a couple seconds after the edit for the digital machine chasing the code to line back up. If it's an analog machine chasing it, I just wouldn't edit it at all. Whatever you do, just don't let it get unlocked from the video it's supposed to be hooked to!

If I'm using just a computer or hardware without a built in time code generator, is there any particular piece of gear that you would recommend?

Sonar can generate smpte and output it to whatever audio output you pick on your interface, I'm assuming that other DAW programs that will do the same. However, if your daw doesn't do it, I really don't see why someone couldn't give you a 4 hour .wav file of it & you could just import that to a track in order to use it as a timecode generator.

I got the mackie MDR because it was 24 channels of useable 24x48 for $800 on ebay. At the time, I wasn't thinking of video use at all, just audio and it happened to be the biggest bang for the buck.

If I were to pick pieces to do just video work now, I'd go with a laptop, my fav daw software (that would chase and generate smpte) and something like an RME Multiface( if you don't need pres and are using the Onyx instead) or a Motu Traveler/Mackie 400F if you do need pres. I'd also figure out how to hook a wireless IEM into that 1640 of yours. This will allow you to do pole & shotgun work without having to be attached at the hip to your headphone mix. One less cable to drag around.

Sorry for seeming like such a complete idiot. I would just rather come across that way on an online forum than on a job site

.

I agree, better here than there. The only other thing I'd touch on is the situation where the camera is sending YOU the timecode. At that point it would be very advantageous for your recording rig to be able to read and sync to it. Just do some research & you'll have your pieces figured out..

Todd

[shaddai]

I do think you will need better gear than the Mackie, most small ob van's would have at least this already and for recording bands live I would expect you need around 24 channels as a minimum 32 channels to cover most jobs. The BBC will use up to 56 for ballet or opera jobs!

This is something to think about too.. the 1640 sounds great, but it is only 16 channels. If you're going to be recording concerts with full bands then it's lacking in channel count. The 1 concert we recorded with my 1640 had 2 guitar players and 2 microphones...after house mics, a couple of different mics set on the amps, direct feeds from the acoustic rigs, a copy of FOH...the 1640 was maxed out. No more room.

Todd

[David Spearritt]

Timecode in digital recording devices is not striping any more, its usually just a stamp in the header of the written file. As I said originally, if you have an alignment reference, you don't need timecode. It was all the rage in analog days for obvious reasons.

[bishopthomas]

shaddai - Thanks for the thorough explanation. And as far as the Mackie not having enough channels: It's a starting point. I'd like to move up to a Ghost or even a DXB in the near future, but for now I will try to start making money with the gear I can afford without going into debt.

[gpcramseysoral]

Good read, I've been wondering about some of these very things for a while.

If Shaddai or Jim have any more information on sound for video work flow i'd love to hear it.