bose personal music sytem?

[flame Linear]

whats with this new bose sound personal system is it total junk or what. I took a look at it and it seems like bose wants to fool musians with the bose sound(no highs no lows must be blose).This thing looks like the first spilled beer will kill
it.
Maybe I am wrong and its the wave of the future!
Should I dump my pro rig now with it real speakers mixers ect?
I was told every musian will have his own system on stage with the speakers at the back.

[littledog]

I was asked to beta-test it for Bose before its official release.

It's not junk. It IS expensive, and I have doubts whether the target market (small bands playing small venues) will be able to afford it, or can be convinced to scrap their old systems that they are used to using.

It does have some advantages sonically. The vertical line-array concept radiates a fairly flat signal 180 degrees on the horizontal axis, which means when placed in the back, no one is hearing any off-axis roll-offs of the highs. At the same time, you have a fairly narrow dispersion pattern in the vertical plane, which minimizes floor and ceiling reflections, which often results in cleaner sound down both on stage and in the house.

Ideally, the concept is you wouldn't use back-line amps for guitar, bass, or keys. You also would not use floor wedges. There are subwoofers in the system, and you can keep adding as many as you need (although at some point you have to add more power amps), so lack of bass is not a real issue. The sound is very clean, and far better sonically than the typical small systems used by many self-contained bands and many small club systems. There is also the added advantage of quick and easy assembly and light weight.

But, it requires musicians to retrain how they are used to hearing themselves on stage, which is certainly no easy task, and I'm not sure is really doable. I think where it has it's best chance is for fairly small mostly acoustic ensembles, where I think it would really shine.

But even there, the price is going to be a big deterrent. Bands that already have thousands invested in a PA system plus instrument amps are going to need a hell of a marketing push to spring for this system.

I can go into a lot more detail on the plusses and minuses (based on my experiences) if anyone is really interested. To be fair, it doesn't even remotely resemble any other Bose products from the past, so it should be judged on its own set of flaws and merits.

[laser]

"I can go into a lot more detail on the plusses and minuses (based on my experiences) if anyone is really interested.

Little Dog,

Please go on. I'm very interested.

Does it handle high and low frequencies well? There have been reports of limited frequency range, and Bose seems to have taken a very guarded approach to their specifications.

I'm comfortable with the physics behind the linear array of drivers (Huygen's Principle) and the production of cylindrical waves (versus spherical) and the advantages/disadvantages. Two meter arrays should work well down to 250Hz. How well do the bass modules blend in with these >250Hz directional waves. With bass reflecting off the floor and ceiling, combined with very directional cylindrical waves, does it mix well in the audience or does it create a sonic mixmatch at a given distance?

About how long would it take to assemble 4 units with bass modules? Is it road worthy? It looks a little fragile in their pictures.

Thanks.

Laser

[littledog]

Originally posted by laser
"I can go into a lot more detail on the plusses and minuses (based on my experiences) if anyone is really interested.

Little Dog,

Please go on. I'm very interested.

Does it handle high and low frequencies well? There have been reports of limited frequency range, and Bose seems to have taken a very guarded approach to their specifications.

I'm comfortable with the physics behind the linear array of drivers (Huygen's Principle) and the production of cylindrical waves (versus spherical) and the advantages/disadvantages. Two meter arrays should work well down to 250Hz. How well do the bass modules blend in with these >250Hz directional waves. With bass reflecting off the floor and ceiling, combined with very directional cylindrical waves, does it mix well in the audience or does it create a sonic mixmatch at a given distance?

About how long would it take to assemble 4 units with bass modules? Is it road worthy? It looks a little fragile in their pictures.

Thanks.

Laser

I'm not going to be of any help with specs, since I don't know them. For all I know it specs out like shit, but for me, most small club systems sound so crappy that even shit specs may be a huge improvement. My general impression is it is a system that has remarkable clarity. Compared to something like the JBL Eons, which is not an uncommon powered speaker for small bands, the sound is exponentially better.

As far as the mix between the subs and the towers, I didn't notice any gross anomalies in a real-life practical situation. Certainly no more than what you get from hearing back-line amps combined with sound from the mains in a traditional set-up.

Set-up time is where they really shine. Four units with bass modules? Maybe 10 minutes? Everything seems built rock solid - fragility doesn't appear to be an issue.

One area where I think Bose could really make a quantum leap: they've got of boatload of built-in DSP that right now they are basically using for amp modelling and EQ. If they could use some of that DSP for some compression and reverb algorhthms, thaqt would be abig step forward in making the system more attractive.

[laser]

Thanks, Little Dog.

Bose has a history of being a little, um, well, "generous" in their product presentation and overall approach to marketing.

It's good to get the story from someone I know is a straight shooter.

Laser

[littledog]

Yeah, when I first mentioned that I would be beta-testing these on some thread a while back, i was deluged with posts putting Bose right down there with Al Qaeda. Or at least Behringer (although for different reasons.)

I have had only peripheral experiences with their products (as in years ago using their 401 and 901 systems a few times), so I had no particular frame of reference to judge the company and/or it's critics.

I too have had companies with which I've had particularly bad experiences, like Alesis, for instance. Yet, in recent years they've come out with at least a couple of things that I've been forced to admit are at least decent (Masterlink), and in one case, excellent (VIPRE). So while I also may be a little more suspicious of certain company's offerings based on their past performaqnce, in the end it's only fair to judge a product on it's merits, not it's pedigree.

On this particular case, I am hardly giving a blanket endorsement. I find the design very interesting and one that does do a lot of what is claimed. I still have some ambivalence about whether it is a practical solution for the average band, considering both cost and some features that could be added.

Right now, a small acoustic group would probably love it as is. A kick ass rock group probably wouldn't.

Another interesting aspect is that the system as configured "out of the box" is a group of completely sperate non-integrated systems. Any band using a sound tech, or desiring centralized control from one location, will still need some sort of mixing board with enough sends or busses to get specific subgroups to specific Bose units. Having a centralized board would also let reverb and compression be added in an efficient fashion. You could use the effects loops that are on each base, but that means you would need seperate outboard for every unit.

This is not a big deal, except that part of the marketing is that you can do a gig with just these, and not have to bring any amps, monitors, mixers, etc. But in some cases (like described above) that claim simply won't be true.

And thanks, by the way, for the straight shooter compliment. I've been subjected to a lot of attacks (unrelated to this) on some other forums lately by people who have for some reason become convinced I'm a threat to the fabric of the universe. While i suppose it's flattering to be considered having such awesome power, I really prefer friendly civilized dialogue! Anyway, it's nice to hear a kind word or two...

[laser]

Yeah, when I first mentioned that I would be beta-testing these on some thread a while back, i was deluged with posts putting Bose right down there with Al Qaeda.

This surprises me, because I can't think of once incident of Al Qaeda selling their product at inflated prices


So while I also may be a little more suspicious of certain company's offerings based on their past performaqnce, in the end it's only fair to judge a product on it's merits, not it's pedigree.

Extremely fair.

Having a centralized board would also let reverb and compression be added in an efficient fashion. You could use the effects loops that are on each base, but that means you would need seperate outboard for every unit.

Good point. It's causing logistical problems with me, too.

Quick question: Does each tower/base have separate effects loops for the primary channels? If I want reverb on, say, vocals but only want chorus on an accoustic guitar plugged into the same unit (different channels), is this possible?


And thanks, by the way, for the straight shooter compliment. I've been subjected to a lot of attacks (unrelated to this) on some other forums lately by people who have for some reason become convinced I'm a threat to the fabric of the universe.

No problem. I'm a straight shooter, myself. Most of those people floggin' you are just internet weenies anyways, and overall losers in life. You don't see George Massenberg flogging anyone.

Laser

[littledog]

Originally posted by laser


Quick question: Does each tower/base have separate effects loops for the primary channels? If I want reverb on, say, vocals but only want chorus on an accoustic guitar plugged into the same unit (different channels), is this possible?

Laser

I'm trying to remember now - it's been a while since I've had my hands on one. I'm pretty sure you can do what you are thinking - I think there is an effects send for each primary channel - I'm not sure how the secondary channels work. I had a ton of notes and litrature on the system, but i don't know where I stashed it right at this moment!

[Scott Peterson]

What is escaping me on the whole concept, and speaking as a guitarist that has played many a bar gig - how would I change from clean to distortion on the fly? Turn effects on and off? Use my effects pedals? Does this thing have an effects loop?

Is the remote they show the only way to change sounds?

I cannot see how that would work in a real situation.

Is that system actually loud enough to keep up with a loud drummer on stage?

I do not understand the concept - from their website - of the volume levels "not falling off" from the front of the room to the back of the room. If the dance floor is jammed and pumping, how exactly does the sound levels not change vs. audience sitting down?

Without a soundman or one central place to turn things up and down, how do you boost for solos or turn the band mix/up down once the place gets full and the dancing gets going?

Consider me, um, confused. :D

[littledog]

Originally posted by Scott Peterson
What is escaping me on the whole concept, and speaking as a guitarist that has played many a bar gig - how would I change from clean to distortion on the fly? Turn effects on and off? Use my effects pedals? Does this thing have an effects loop?

Is the remote they show the only way to change sounds?

I cannot see how that would work in a real situation.

Is that system actually loud enough to keep up with a loud drummer on stage?

I do not understand the concept - from their website - of the volume levels "not falling off" from the front of the room to the back of the room. If the dance floor is jammed and pumping, how exactly does the sound levels not change vs. audience sitting down?

Without a soundman or one central place to turn things up and down, how do you boost for solos or turn the band mix/up down once the place gets full and the dancing gets going?

Consider me, um, confused. :D

Good points, some of which I raised at the training sessions. (After a while, I think they got a little annoyed at me...)

The guitar issue is one they sidestep by suggesting two solutions:

a) use a Pod. (They were even suppliying the beta-testers with either loaner pods, and had worked out "sweetheart' deals with Guitar Center so that we could buy them at a reduced price.)

b) use a very small guitar amp that would be mic'ed. This, of course, would be the exception to the rule of no backline amps. But the justification was that the amp would be relatively low volume and used to get tone only - while the bulk of the actual sound amplification would still be done by the Bose system.

The drum issue: in their demo sessions they actually heavily damped the kick drum so that the majority of the sound was coming from the speakers, not the drum itself. I wasn't to crazy about that. But in general, just like any other instrument, the theory was that the drummer wouldn't be forced to play as loud in this set-up. Which is amusing, because most drummers don't consider playing loud as something they are "forced" to do, at least in most rock/pop styles.

This is why I have said before that the system seems better suited for acoustic groups, jazz groups, duos, etc. than for rock, heavy R&B, etc.

In the real world trial in a club we were using the Thaddeus Hogarth band - an original roots/R&B/reggae type ensemble that is somewhat reminiscent of Lennie Kravitz. It was by no means a soft band, but wasn't heavy metal either. In the club, the band sounded very good through the system - a lot of clarity. But they were not the kind of band that generally has a soundman constantly tweaking levels from tune to tune or during solos, etc. To do that, each individual musician would have to use their own remote, which certainly raises another whole set of problems. But there is no reason why you couldn't run everyone first into a board with a lot of aux sends, and then route the sends of the board to the individual Bose units.

I'm sure volume levels do fall off from the front to the back of the room. Not sure that is a bad thing, as dancers usually want the music louder than those in the back who are trying to eat, talk, etc.

The band thought the system was quite useable, although the lead singer felt like he had to over-sing a little bit sometimes to hear himself. To be fair, though, he probably feels that way about some other non-Bose club systems from time to time.

[Scott Peterson]

Thank you for the reply; and your points make sense.

[Thermionic]

Every few years Bose seem to claim they've re-invented the wheel...

Anyone remember "Bose Bass Cannons" from the late '80s??

The time I heard them the system sounded like mud, could've been a crappy house-engineer but I haven't seen them anywhere since, if they were such a great invention why aren't they common?

Slightly OT I know, but you can rely on Bose to change the laws of physics every now and again

[patrox247]

Does the same guy who wons Bose own Monster?

[laser]

It's easy to sling mud at Bose, but is there any way we can keep the discussion at a high level.

As I see it:

a) There is nothing I've ever experienced from Bose that I couldn't do better with other manufacturers' products at the same price, or as well with other products at a lower price.

b) Some respected people that I trust are saying good things about this product/technology.

c) The technology, what it does and how it does it, clearly falls within the laws of physics. There is nothing "black magic" about this product from a physics standpoint.

d) It seems to solve some serious problems that a lot of working musicians encounter, but it won't be for everyone. Like any system, there are limitations.

e) It's very expensive.

Actually, I'm not saying anything Little Dog hasn't already said; I figured maybe if the points were listed clearly, we could have an informative, meaningful discussion and not turn this thread into a Bose buttkicking.

Laser

[Ted Nightshade]

Originally posted by laser
It's easy to sling mud at Bose, but is there any way we can keep the discussion at a high level.

As I see it:

a) There is nothing I've ever experienced from Bose that I couldn't do better with other manufacturers' products at the same price, or as well with other products at a lower price.

b) Some respected people that I trust are saying good things about this product/technology.

c) The technology, what it does and how it does it, clearly falls within the laws of physics. There is nothing "black magic" about this product from a physics standpoint.

d) It seems to solve some serious problems that a lot of working musicians encounter, but it won't be for everyone. Like any system, there are limitations.

e) It's very expensive.

Actually, I'm not saying anything Little Dog hasn't already said; I figured maybe if the points were listed clearly, we could have an informative, meaningful discussion and not turn this thread into a Bose buttkicking.



Laser

I adore a well-installed set of Bose 901s, vintage 70s. What other product from where does this as well or better? I would really like to know and to experience that too.

I am actually really intrigued by this new Bose PAS thing and would like to do the same general thing but really, really well and power it with my own amps, have my own trick front end and all that. Doesn't have to be ridiculously small and portable. DOES have to sound so ****ing good and fit in naturally with unmic'ed acoustic drums, vibes, leslies, etc. Something that is not really directional in the usual sense- the usual directional speakers are such a compromise to add to what was a 360 degree projection acoustic ensemble... don't you think? Something without crossovers...

[Rod Gervais]

I did a jam session in Granby Ct with a band who is using this new system

I have to tell you the sound was great - and it was amazing to see a microphone set up 3' in front of a speaker tower with no feedback.

This system had 3 - 7' towers and one bass woofer.

The sound was crystal clear - and i was very impressed.

I wouldn't hesitate to buy this if i was playing on a regular basis in smaller venues. But then again - i like to play light (drums by the way) and prefer my kit to be miced - we were playing a pretty wide mix of music.

It does take some getting used to having the sound completely behind you - but i could get used to that real quick.

The POD setup works pretty well - however there are some sounds you aren't going to get with a POD.

Rod

[Rod Gervais]

Originally posted by littledog
And thanks, by the way, for the straight shooter compliment. I've been subjected to a lot of attacks (unrelated to this) on some other forums lately by people who have for some reason become convinced I'm a threat to the fabric of the universe. While i suppose it's flattering to be considered having such awesome power, I really prefer friendly civilized dialogue! Anyway, it's nice to hear a kind word or two...

LD is (and has always been) a straight shooter from my point of view - and i take anything he has to say as meaningfull.

This thread is just another example of how much he has to add to any forum.

Rod

[littledog]

Hey, easy there Rod! If you overdo it people will catch on that you're my paid publicist!

(But seriously - grateful for the kind words.)

[lflier]

Hey all,

It appears there's some confusion about the new Bose system and I'm in a very good position to answer. My band was selected by Bose to be one of 24 bands around the country that are demonstrating the system. So we've been using it since shortly before it went to market, were trained by Bose, and have gigged with it quite a bit now. I should add that we would not have accepted this deal if the product was crap - that's about the last thing any band wants is to risk their entire reputation by going out and sounding like crap. And we are not getting paid by Bose to sell systems or anything like that - we're pretty much beta testers and demonstraters. I happen to not mind answering people's questions though, since I hang out on a lot of audio forums anyway, so you're welcome to ask away.

All I can say up front is that this thing really does do basically what Bose says it does, and to our rather audio-snobby ears, it sounds fantastic. We can hear ourselves each other better than we ever have onstage, and our audiences report the same (as we would expect since we hear the same thing as the audience).

For those who don't know me from here or other forums, I play in a 3 piece rock band and we do get quite loud. We're not a metal band, mind you, but we do have a loud drummer who's using clear heads on his drums with no muffling, and is a big fan of John Bonham and Keith Moon. He does play with really good dynamics, so he's not beating the crap out of the kit through the whole song or set, but there are plenty of times when he is. The PAS has no trouble cutting through that.

Originally posted by Scott Peterson
What is escaping me on the whole concept, and speaking as a guitarist that has played many a bar gig - how would I change from clean to distortion on the fly? Turn effects on and off? Use my effects pedals? Does this thing have an effects loop?

I'm the guitarist in my band so of course that question concerned me too. First off, yes it does have inserts for effects. Some guitarists do like to go direct using their effects pedals - the PAS will accept instrument level inputs. You can also use a POD or other modeling device if you want. Personally, I'm not into that, I've gotta have my tube amps. I will probably end up getting a smaller amp so I don't have to lug mine around, but for the time being, I'm using my usual stage amp (a vintage Fender Pro Reverb) and I attenuate the stage volume with a Dr. Z Air Brake, which allows you to crank up your amp and get the tone you want but then lowers the volume without killing the tone. IMO it's way better (and less expensive too) than some of the competing products like the THD Hot Plate or Marshall Power Brake. Anyhow, I use that and then mic it through my Bose system. It sounds great because unlike the usual really directional sound you get from a guitar amp, you hear the same sound everywhere.

Is the remote they show the only way to change sounds?

I cannot see how that would work in a real situation.

Well, for us it does. I'm sure a lot of people will be tempted to use it like a conventional PA and run a mixer into them. This is possible, but I REALLY would not recommend it because you'll miss out on a lot of the real benefits of the system. Ideally each band member has their own PAS and controls their own sound, so it's kinda like an extension of your amp (except that you put vocals through it too).

It's very difficult to get your head around this idea at first, but it's really not too different from the Big Band days when individuals were responsible for their own amplification. And it really does sound more natural and engaging that way, not to mention puts the musicians back in control of our own sound instead of having to hand it over to somebody else and hope they're getting it right.

Is that system actually loud enough to keep up with a loud drummer on stage?

Yeah, see above. I don't think I'd recommend it for metal bands who just have to have unbelievably loud stage volumes. If you insist on cranking your Marshall stack up to 11 this probably won't work for you. But if you're a "reasonably loud" rock band it will definitely work... I'd say the loudest we get is around 110 dB with the average being around 105. That's just a guess, I'd like to do some actual measurements one of these times.

I do not understand the concept - from their website - of the volume levels "not falling off" from the front of the room to the back of the room. If the dance floor is jammed and pumping, how exactly does the sound levels not change vs. audience sitting down?

It changes some but not as much as with conventional speakers. Line arrays lose their volume at only half the rate of conventional speakers, so that means 1) you only have to be half as loud on stage to be perceived to be just as loud by the folks in the middle, 2) you can walk right up to the speakers at your regular stage volume and not be uncomfortable, yet the folks in back hear it at pretty much the same volume (until you get further back than about 100-125 feet, then it starts to drop off more). Sounds nutty but it's true.

Without a soundman or one central place to turn things up and down, how do you boost for solos or turn the band mix/up down once the place gets full and the dancing gets going?

I boost my solos with a volume pedal, which I was actually used to doing anyway. And we can always turn up from the stage with the remotes if we need to. Audiences have been pretty knocked out by the sound though, we haven't heard any complaints that we aren't loud enough in back or anything! In fact we've done some outdoor shows where people walked off down the parking lot and heard pretty much the same mix as they did up close.

The concept definitely takes some getting used to but it is really, really cool once you've assimilated it and had a chance to work with it a bit.

[flame Linear]

Im still not sold on this sytem. With all the electronics on the floor facing up you would think on spilled drink would blow it up. Anyone beer tested this rig yet!
i could see it in a coffe house but cant spilled cofee do the same thing as beer.
if Bose just built the electronics In a better designed cabnet
they might have fewer returns.

[littledog]

Hey Lee,

Glad things are working out for you. This is the first feedback I've gotten to hear from the "original 24" other than the one I was associated with (Thaddeus Hogarth Band). Fun couple of days we had at Bose anyway - it's nice to get face time with a manufacturing behemoth where they actually seem to be listening to your concerns.

For everyone else:

There is a long article on the system with a positive slant from Paul Lehrman in this month's Mix. I've got a few minor issues with how he wrote the column. Mostly to do with the fact that it is hard to always determine where Paul's personal observations end and Bose's PR begins. (Or visa versa). But his take on the system is good reading and informative.

[Rod Gervais]

To Lee and LD,

Sorry Ld, Lee get's my attention 1st buddy....

When i was checking out this system I was with the Mayocks, who are another one of the 24 bands around the country. So we now have some input from 1/8th of the bands nationwide.

Lee,

Tim mentioned to me that he had the chance to meet you in Boston - he's pretty impressed with you. From what I've seen here (and at other forums) I can understand why. You're a very knowledgable and classy person.


Folks,

They too are very VERY happy with the system. And as I said above - I was pretty amazed as well.

I agree that this won't suit everybody, but i can see where it's a fine product that brings some real value for the investment.

Rod

[laser]

I adore a well-installed set of Bose 901s, vintage 70s. What other product from where does this as well or better? I would really like to know and to experience that too.
*********************************

Ted,

Vintage 70's????

JBL, my friend. JBL

[Ted Nightshade]

Originally posted by laser
I adore a well-installed set of Bose 901s, vintage 70s. What other product from where does this as well or better? I would really like to know and to experience that too.
*********************************

Ted,

Vintage 70's????

JBL, my friend. JBL

Did they have something that puts out a similar soundfield, speakers pointing away from you and all that?

[lflier]

Thanks for the kind words Rod and LD. Yeah Rod, I hung out with Tim quite a bit up there at Bose and he's a good guy.

Just a little update, I mentioned that I was wanting to take some SPL measurements and I finally did get some at rehearsal. As I figured we were in the 105-110 dB range most of the time with some occasional spots that hit 115. This was from about 15 feet in front of the drum kit and 20 feet in front of the PAS's. Our rehearsal room is quite small too, so we only have the PAS's turned up about halfway - we crank them a bit more at gigs normally, when we don't have quick reflections off the back wall.

As mentioned, as you back off from the PAS's the sound level drops off very slowly compared with conventional speakers, so it's still very near that loud quite a ways back in a room. We did a recording from about 60 feet back at an outdoor gig and the mix still sounded exactly as we expected and heard from the stage. Pretty freaky stuff.

It doesn't suck to listen to CD's through them either. :D We're having a lot of fun with these things!

[tackletart]

Seen Bose Bass Cannons at a Club in Birmingham (UK) and only a few feet above the dancefloor!! The bass was strange. The only advantage I could see was lower noise pollution.

As a listener I've been impressed with the clarity of D&B Audiotechnik PA Speakers...

Originally posted by Thermionic
Every few years Bose seem to claim they've re-invented the wheel...

Anyone remember "Bose Bass Cannons" from the late '80s??

The time I heard them the system sounded like mud, could've been a crappy house-engineer but I haven't seen them anywhere since, if they were such a great invention why aren't they common?

Slightly OT I know, but you can rely on Bose to change the laws of physics every now and again

[laser]

Lee,

Thanks for your input. Before going through the effort of trying these, it helps to get the real scoop.

There is another site that is, well, less than "warm and fuzzy" on the Bose PAS--some who have tried it. Their complaints are:

1) Vocals tend to sound "less-than-real", "kind of plastic", "nasally" and "not as warm" as they prefer. Same has been noted for accoustic guitars. Some attribute lack of warmth to the 2 1/2" speaker arrays.

2) It's cumbersome to add effects to vocals, and though the clarity helps, the vocals don't sound "rich" when totally dry

3) Feedback on accoustic guitars can be a problem. Same with microphones that are moving on stage when it passes by one of the cylinder arrays.

4) Set up not as easy as advertised. The base amp is huge and clunky. Adding effects to vocals makes the set-up more complicated.

Since you're using this on a regular basis, I wonder if you could comment on their complaints. I really like the idea, but some of the above would make this a "no-go".

Thanks.

*****
Ted,
Re: 70's
No, the JBLs just sounded so much richer at the same price.
*****

Laser

[lflier]

Hi laser,

OK I'll try and comment on each of these reported issues.

1) Vocals tend to sound "less-than-real", "kind of plastic", "nasally" and "not as warm" as they prefer. Same has been noted for accoustic guitars. Some attribute lack of warmth to the 2 1/2" speaker arrays.

This has not been our experience at all! We probably love the sound of vocals through the PAS more than anything. Acoustic guitars sound fantastic through them as well. They are very "real" and flat sounding (frequency response-wise) which I suppose can be disconcerting if you're not used to it.

Generally, you have to play around with the presets a bit to find a sound you like for each instrument/vocal. It's probable that some people aren't doing that when they do a quick audition. It's also possible that when auditioning the unit it is set to a preset that isn't flattering to the vocal or mic. Always start with preset 00 (flat) and experiment from there.

2) It's cumbersome to add effects to vocals, and though the clarity helps, the vocals don't sound "rich" when totally dry

Well, like I said, we find the vocals extremely rich when totally unaffected. But, it's true that if you do want effects it's more cumbersome to add them to a PAS than using a mixer. There are inserts and line-outs on each of the main channels, but of course if you wanted them on more than one vocal (through more than one system) you'd have to have an effects unit for each system. The only other alternative is to use a small mixer for effects sends and returns only, which besides being a pain, defeats a lot of the spatial benefits of the PAS (hearing each vocal coming from its own sound source, which is a wonderful effect).

Some vocalists are finding that, since they can hear themselves better through the PAS and are really enjoying the clarity, they prefer not to have effects at all. If you do want them, I'd recommend using a stompbox unit so you can control your own sounds. There are a few stompbox vocal processors on the market these days like the Digitech, which are pretty cool. Some people are also using stompboxes designed for acoustic guitars as vocal effects units.

3) Feedback on accoustic guitars can be a problem. Same with microphones that are moving on stage when it passes by one of the cylinder arrays.

It's not a problem with acoustic guitars that have a pickup. Putting a mic on it might be problematic, I don't know, we haven't tried it.

We have had very few problems with vocal mics feeding back even when moving around. There are a couple of specific positions in relation to your individual PAS that can cause feedback, but you learn where they are pretty quickly just like you learn where not to put a mic vis a vis a monitor. You also have to know the proper gain staging sequence - if you crank the first trim pot too high it's more likely to feed back than at later stages of level adjustment. In general, we experience less feedback by far with the PAS than with conventional monitors.

4) Set up not as easy as advertised. The base amp is huge and clunky. Adding effects to vocals makes the set-up more complicated.

Hmm... don't agree at all about the power base. It's about as big as a drummer's cymbal case and weighs 35 pounds I think. Setup of the system in total is way easier than with a conventional PA. It takes under a minute to set up a PAS, not counting plugging in mics or your personal effects rig/amps/whatever.

Some people have complained about the input panel being at the rear of the system, which means it's facing backward when you're approaching it from the stage, and it can also be difficult to see. I agree this is kind of a pain but I don't think it's a show stopper at all. If you set these things up right, you can set them up for your band at rehearsal and then pretty much leave the settings alone during the gig - just use your remote control. So the only time you have to access the back panel is during setup.

Adding effects may or may not be a more complicated setup than the same effects with a conventional PA. If you have a powered mixer/amp that has built in effects, then that will be easier. If you have a separate mixer and effects rack, I don't think that's any easier really. It could be in theory, but in practice there always seems to be some sort of cabling issue to track down. If using stompboxes, it'd be the same of course.

So there are a few tradeoffs vs. a conventional PA but I think the benefits vs. the tradeoffs are well worth it.

Also, some people seem to say they like the sound of this or that speaker more so than the PAS... but in practice, 1) only a few people in the house are going to be able to hear the speaker's sweet spot, and 2) if the band isn't hearing the FOH mix, like they are with the PAS, they have no idea how it sounds. Bands who mix themselves from the stage often tend to push their PA speakers past their real limits without knowing it. Unfortunately so do a lot of sound techs, which may be because the sound tech is incompetant or it may be that the band's stage volume is too high for the PA and they aren't aware of it (or won't be able to hear themselves well if they turn down). Of course, crappy room acoustics can be a big factor too. So, often times my experience of PA equipment has been that what sounds good in the store is not necessarily how it sounds in practice. With the PAS, once we spent a few weeks working through how to get our sound out of it and got used to it, we've experienced VERY consistent sound from place to place, even in rooms that normally sound terrible with a conventional PA.

So that's my 2 cents!

[littledog]

I'll confirm the above.

While it's entirely possible that someone may not like the way their voice sounds, e.g. nasal, I can attest that if it sounds nasal through the Bose system it is because their voise IS nasal, and maybe they are used to something else that adds distortion in a flattering way.

The criticism of set-up difficulty, etc. is ridiculous, compared to setting up anything else remotely resembling a conventional PA system. And as Lee stated so well, feedback is less likely through this system than with all but the most carefully positioned and eq'd PA's using floor wedges and/or side fills.

The only valid point in the list that Laser quoted is about effects. I'll even go beyond that: Bose dropped the ball by having a prodigious amount of DSP and not including any effects or compression algorhythms. The good news (potentially) is that it doesn't seem like a very difficult task to add it into "Version 2.0", assuming they wake up and realize what a killer system it would be with that inclusion.

[lflier]

Hi littledog,

Yeah, Bose says that apparently it's not too hard to update the DSP stuff even in the existing units, and they will definitely be adding more presets.

As for effects... they've had lots of requests for it, especially reverb, and they are considering it, but their contention is that most of the reverbs that come built into PA systems aren't that great anyway, and to build one that was tweakable enough to satisfy a discerning user would be an expensive proposition. They've been asking people whether, if their current PA system has onboard reverb, they ever actually end up using it. And most people of course end up going with outboard units.

Of course it's easier to say that when you're talking about only getting one of each outboard unit vs. several, but I think I see their point about a lot of development time invested in some effects which may well not end up being used much anyway. I'm not really sure what a good answer is... the stompbox approach seems easiest and most in keeping with the PAS concept of the musicians being in total control of their sound.