clip-on drum mics - what's good?

[littledog]

I've been doing more and more live recording - pretty much a wide variety of everything (except classical).

Sometimes it's just not practical to put up a forest of mic stands around the drum kit, especially if there is video going on at the same time. I'm especially interested in finding some quality clip-on type mics (with the little goosenecks) that I can use at least on the toms, and maybe on snare too. (In the studio I use 414's on the toms, but that's not always practical for live recording.)

I made the mistake of buying three Audix F-90's, because I got a really good deal on them. Or at least, it would have been a really good deal if they didn't sound like ass - which unfortunately they do as soon as the SPL's get above a certain point. And it was definitely the mics - no clipping going on anywhere else in the chain. And this was with them three inches off of the heads. Fortunately, on the gig that I tried them on, I got really good tom sounds from the overheads, and I was using something else on the snare ( EV N/D408 on a claw). So the client never knew.

Anyway, I still am interested in clip-ons that actually can handle a loud live drum set and that give me the kind of sound I'm used to getting in the studio from my 414's. (Or at least something close). What are my options? Any recommendations?

Thanks muchly!

[Jim vanBergen]

Sennheisser 504s and audix D2's with the D-clip are my first choices. Never had a problem with 504s (wait, now they are 604...make that 904s )

the "standard" Shure Beta 98s sound good, if you want more hit than drum, but can be EQ's out.

Just one opinion!

[Nutmeg II.]

I realy like the sure beta89 clip mics.
They are around 350$ I think.
Great SDCs with a extra nice clip on with gooseneck...
They do sond so good that I would even put them on in the studio.
Work great on all snares and toms and even as hihat and ride mics or on horns and the like.
They are very small so that you will realy enjoy them in video production too...

[Remoteness]

I like LD for toms...

How about using an LP Claw or other type of clamp with your favorite mic instead of those mini clip-on mics?

[littledog]

Originally Posted by Remoteness

I like LD for toms...

How about using an LP Claw or other type of clamp with your favorite mic instead of those mini clip-on mics?

I'm with you on LD - but it would be nice for portability and sight-lines if something smaller actually worked. I like the idea of mini-condensers, and the two votes so far for the beta 89's will definitely make me check them out.

But I remember an article a while back in some mag where someone being interviewed was saying that lots of people in Nashville were using a particular mini-condenser in the studio on toms. I vaguely recall that they were either AKG or Audio Technicas. I know that's incredibly vague, but can anyone figure out what those might be?

[Remoteness]

Shure Beta 89? Very interesting...

I'm familiar with the Beta 98D/S for snare and toms and the original SM98 but I never heard of a Beta 89. Is it a typo or a new model I never heard of?

[True North]

AKG C418's (mini condensers)- extremely small clip ons and they sound great. They are so small that they are flimsy looking I bought a few extra's just in case some of them broke, but it never happened. I might let a few of them go, if you are interested PM me, cheers!

[littledog]

Originally Posted by Remoteness

Shure Beta 89? Very interesting...

I'm familiar with the Beta 98D/S for snare and toms and the original SM98 but I never heard of a Beta 89. Is it a typo or a new model I never heard of?

I just noticed that one poster said 89 and the other said 98, so it probably was a typo and it should be 98. Has anyone compared the Beta98 to the AKG C418?

[aussie_techie]

418s break to easily, one hit and they start to go and a few more and they are realy bad, at that stage you know tehre is a problem as soon as you plug it in. they dont sound all that good to start with anyway and being so close and directly clipped to the hoop the drum resonence goes directly into the mic. the cables on them are thin and kind of annoying aswell.

i would just go for beta56a with the LP claw. betas take high SPL in their stride. using the claw gives you the felibility to use whatever mics you want.

the bayers sound good aswell but they are not cheep.

[Remoteness]

When I close mic toms I use MD409s with LP Claws even when I'm recording them for a video shoot.

Believe it or not, I haven't close miked toms in a very long time and I dig the results I'm getting.

[Nutmeg II.]

Originally Posted by Remoteness

Shure Beta 89? Very interesting...

I'm familiar with the Beta 98D/S for snare and toms and the original SM98 but I never heard of a Beta 89. Is it a typo or a new model I never heard of?

Yeah well it was a typo. beta98 it is.

[Nutmeg II.]

Originally Posted by littledog

I'm with you on LD - but it would be nice for portability and sight-lines if something smaller actually worked. I like the idea of mini-condensers, and the two votes so far for the beta 89's will definitely make me check them out.

But I remember an article a while back in some mag where someone being interviewed was saying that lots of people in Nashville were using a particular mini-condenser in the studio on toms. I vaguely recall that they were either AKG or Audio Technicas. I know that's incredibly vague, but can anyone figure out what those might be?

I am not from Nashville, but I do love Neumann KM84 on toms!

[littledog]

Originally Posted by aussie_techie

the bayers sound good aswell but they are not cheep.

Which Beyer model are you referring to? Do you mean the Opus series (88 I think is the number for the snare/tom mics)?

[Remoteness]

Originally Posted by Nutmeg II.

I am not from Nashville, but I do love Neumann KM84 on toms!

Ahhh, KM84s, very cool. I use them for snare from time to time.
I've have used KM140s for toms with excellent results.

[Nutmeg II.]

Originally Posted by Remoteness

Ahhh, KM84s, very cool. I use them for snare from time to time.
I've have used KM140s for toms with excellent results.

Defenetly sweet! I like them even more if you pull them back more than the usualy close mikeing distance. Very balanced sound.

thumbsup

[True North]

Originally Posted by aussie_techie

418s break to easily, one hit and they start to go and a few more and they are realy bad, at that stage you know tehre is a problem as soon as you plug it in.

I have never hit mine or have had them hit only a couple of times. That being said I don't imagine that they would last a direct hit very often. These things are so small that it is rare that they get bopped. The to portion of the mic is not very rigid and that is by design, they are menat to move out of the way when hit.

Originally Posted by aussie_techie

They dont sound all that good to start with anyway and being so close and directly clipped to the hoop the drum resonence goes directly into the mic.

Resonance has never been a factor for me and there are a lot of big name drummers who use mini condensors by choice that would not put up with resonanace issues. Most clip ons that I am aware of clip to the rim, including LP Claws

Originally Posted by aussie_techie

the cables on them are thin and kind of annoying as well.

They are thin and this was my biggest worry. It was the biggest reason that I purchased extras but I have not had any issues yet.

Originally Posted by aussie_techie

LP claw.

I hate those f'in things, I would rather use gaff tape . They seize up and while it will give you flexibility on mic choices I often find that the larger mics are sometimes hard to find placement for on a lot of kits. I used to use them in a band I was in for a couple of years and never again.

Originally Posted by aussie_techie

the bayers sound good aswell but they are not cheep.

Bayers make some great mics. I also really like Sennheiser E604's which would by my other choice. They are dynamics so they can take a little more abuse but they aren't as big and obtrusive as say a 421, 57/58 etc... The clamping mechanism on them is also excellant and they sound great - those Sennheiser guys know how to make decent sounding drum mics.

[aussie_techie]

Originally Posted by littledog

Which Beyer model are you referring to? Do you mean the Opus series (88 I think is the number for the snare/tom mics)?

yes sorry opus series, i think its the 88s

Originally Posted by True North

I have never hit mine or have had them hit only a couple of times. That being said I don't imagine that they would last a direct hit very often. These things are so small that it is rare that they get bopped. The to portion of the mic is not very rigid and that is by design, they are menat to move out of the way when hit.

when ever i come to use them theres always one or two that arnt sounding to good, had one that was clearly destroyed it certainly didnt sound like a drum. come to think of it theres no part of those AKG drum mic kits i like.

Originally Posted by littledog

Resonance has never been a factor for me and there are a lot of big name drummers who use mini condensors by choice that would not put up with resonanace issues. Most clip ons that I am aware of clip to the rim, including LP Claws

most mics at least have some internal shock mounting, the 418s dont seem to have anything in them.

Originally Posted by littledog

They are thin and this was my biggest worry. It was the biggest reason that I purchased extras but I have not had any issues yet.

i havnt had any issues with the cable beyond the usual anoyences of small cables but it would be a worry in a hash enviroment.

Originally Posted by littledog

I hate those f'in things, I would rather use gaff tape . They seize up and while it will give you flexibility on mic choices I often find that the larger mics are sometimes hard to find placement for on a lot of kits. I used to use them in a band I was in for a couple of years and never again.

gaffa tape can be used to fix anything havnt had an issues with the Claws seizing up up aslong as they get regular use, they can be a bit tricky if you arnt used to them but easy enough to work out. how about the K&M clips then?

Originally Posted by littledog

I also really like Sennheiser E604's which would by my other choice.

the sound has never amazed me and they are so small and plastic. but plenty of people use them with fairly good results so aslong as they work for you use them.

[Jim vanBergen]

Originally Posted by aussie_techie

the sound has never amazed me and they are so small and plastic. but plenty of people use them with fairly good results so aslong as they work for you use them.

I was very reluctant to use them, I was given them by the owner of a rental house when I was trying to get 421 (v1s) some years ago for a jazz remote recording at Avery Fisher Hall. I was very skeptical, but I tried them. Blew away a 57 I had next to it, 'tighter' than a Beyer M88, awfully damn close to the 421 sound. I was told that they made these with the 421 capsule, specifically for drums. It's probably like a 421 v2, but whatever it is, it's easy, the rubber clip is a good shock mount, and I get great attack and body. I also use this exclusively as an under snare mic, and I've never had one break from a drumstick (fingers crossed). I have original 504s and have used about 30 others from rental houses.

I like 418s but they have not been my first choice for ANYTHING in over ten years. The clips break, slip in spite of the rubber, and the cables are flimsy at best. But the mics sound decent for an electret condenser. Smaller but not as good as the dynamic SM57, not as good a condenser as the SM81. That should tell you volumes. When you need a VERY small clip mic, it's a good choice. And on a trumpet or bone it cuts thru a dense mix; I just used these on 'pets for Tito Puente Jr and they did just that. I swapped it out for a Beyer M88 on the bari sax, though!

IMHO, Ya gotta go by the sound, not the plastic housing, or the sputtered gold you see on a mic housing. I choose these most often instead of MUCH more expensive mics, for live, recording, and broadcast, simply for the sonics. It's as close to a dynamic version of a KM84 without being a KM84. It's NOT a KM84, --it has a good sound close to one if a KM84 were a dynamic--but one drumstick hit to a KM84 cost me $300 in service re-tuning a capsule, with permanent dent to the body. These are inexpensive if not cheap, and sound really good. I've spent years using 98s and Beta 98s and have had more breakage with them, clips breaking, cables breaking, goosenecks moving during shows, etc - lots of problems. And the Audix D2 sound good but are bigger, need a separate clip and a touch of EQ- while costing more. I think 504s are drum mic equivalent to the vocal standard SM58. YMMV.

[littledog]

Originally Posted by Jim vanBergen

It's as close to a dynamic version of a KM84 without being a KM84. It's NOT a KM84, --it has a good sound close to one if a KM84 were a dynamic--but one drumstick hit to a KM84 cost me $300 in service re-tuning a capsule, with permanent dent to the body. These are inexpensive if not cheap, and sound really good.

Sorry, Jim - I'm having trouble figuring out which mics you are actually referring to (and recommending). What model exactly sounds like a "dynamic version" of the KM84?

Also, for the sake of accuracy, Aussie Techie has a whole list of quotes attributed to me... none of which are mine.

[Crash]

I have had great success with Audio Technica ATM35 's on toms. I know Deen Castronovo is using them on his kit with Journey as well, for whatever significance that means to you. They are discontinued apparently, which is a bummer.

http://www.shopping.com/xPO-Audio_Te..._35_INSTRUMENT

http://www.audio-technica.com/cms/wi...c98/index.html

I just noticed that it looks like the ATM35 has become the ATM350 ....with accompanying price hike of course.

http://www.audio-technica.com/cms/wi...978/index.html

The PRO35 might work well and be a bit cheaper.

http://www.audio-technica.com/cms/wi...6d6/index.html

[Jim vanBergen]

Originally Posted by littledog

Sorry, Jim - I'm having trouble figuring out which mics you are actually referring to (and recommending).

The Sennheiser 504 (and 604) which is probably now a 904. Worth a listen! thumbsup

[MBishopSFX]

Check out the DPA 4023 compact condensers. They take loads of level, can fit in tight spots and sound great. Very similar to the 4011. I use them all the time across all sorts of genres.



This shockmount with gooseneck allows placement almost anywhere on the kit:

or the standard mount:

[valleysound]

I have a few e504/e604 and they work good for me, I use the Audix drum clips or stands though. I use a D4 on the floor toms.

[Remoteness]

Sweet!

Originally Posted by MBishopSFX

Check out the DPA 4023 compact condensers. They take loads of level, can fit in tight spots and sound great. Very similar to the 4011. I use them all the time across all sorts of genres.



This shockmount with gooseneck allows placement almost anywhere on the kit:

or the standard mount:

[aussie_techie]

mmmmm DPA but how many have the cash for 6 of them ... well i know i dont anyway

[Jim vanBergen]

hey Michael, great shots of the 4023's. They DO sound accurate and are small, but you still have to shell out 1.5k for each mic AND additional dough for hardware to clip the mic onto the drum.

The thing is, one drumstick hit, and they are TOAST. So put them under the drum, or OH, or as room mics- or be well insured!

You can always RENT them, too- they are popular in the NE with B'way sound rental shops. B'way shows use them for strings all the time... course, one bad stick hit and you have become the owner.

[MBishopSFX]

Thanks - I can't take credit for the shots. They're straight off DPA's web site.

I've only had a drummer hit a 4023 once or twice. Luckily nothing happened to the mic. I guess I don't work with many flailing drummers...

I've had great luck with the 4023s on large chorus, all sorts of brass and winds, and almost anywhere one would put a 4011. I love 'em!

Originally Posted by Jim vanBergen

hey Michael, great shots of the 4023's. They DO sound accurate and are small, but you still have to shell out 1.5k for each mic AND additional dough for hardware to clip the mic onto the drum.

The thing is, one drumstick hit, and they are TOAST. So put them under the drum, or OH, or as room mics- or be well insured!

You can always RENT them, too- they are popular in the NE with B'way sound rental shops. B'way shows use them for strings all the time... course, one bad stick hit and you have become the owner.

[OKden]

Originally Posted by littledog

... I remember an article a while back in some mag where someone being interviewed was saying that lots of people in Nashville were using a particular mini-condenser in the studio on toms. I vaguely recall that they were either AKG or Audio Technicas. I know that's incredibly vague, but can anyone figure out what those might be?

It's the ATM35s that some guys here like to use. They have great rejection, but tend to be a little "hi-fi" sounding.

[mrufino1]

You should check out AMT, I think the site is appliedmicrophone.com. Very cool little condensers. I did a few gigs with the guy who makes them a few years ago, he knows his stuff. I don't own any but another friend mics his whole kit with these and swears by them. Maybe they are what you're looking for.

[TML]

I've been using the 604's and 504's in the studio for certain drummers who have really tight setups. It's better to get a decent sound with a smaller mic than a ok tone with say a 421. That said...the senn 504/6-4 really hold their own. Not as punch or hi-fi as a 421 but get the job done.
Tim