Mixing strings

[joeq]

I just recorded some great string section parts- great players (all from top NYC orchestras) good room, mics, pres, and soon I will have to mix.

The material is quite dense with lots of percussion, horns, backing vocals, plus the usual guitars bass drums and keyboards. I want to preserve the "bigness" of the string section, but there is not a lot of room in the mix.

When I turn the strings down, they get lost. If I try my usual tricks to get them to cut through, they start to sound like "string samples" instead of real live players.

I am looking for any tips on how keep the strings sounding Big and Real and still somehow fit everything else into the track.

[C.Lambrechts]

I would have to hear the material to be realy specific ofcourse but in general :

- make room for them by deleting material in sections where they are important. Don't know the song but I can imagine maybe that in certain parts of it they are more important then the guitars / keyboards or whatever. Make those dissapear or barely hearable for example.


- if it is a complete string section with violas cellos and basses obviously it is going to take up the whole spectrum so you HAVE to make a choice. if you have them on seperate tracks though you might wanna get rid of the lows in first and second violins .... hi-pass the hell out of them.

- you say that they sound like samples when you process them .... I presume eq them right ??? .... well ... first of all ... the performance will still be there ... something you wouldn't have gotten with samples so that's something to bear in mind. And it isn't because an instrument sounds weird in solo that it doesn't function in a mix. on the contrary. mixing is often about making room for other instruments by processing them.

- last but not least .... automation .... again to make room but especially important if you want to keep those strings to be unprocessed. Again in general but especially with dense material, automation becomes important. move less important stuff to the background to bring up the important things at that very moment. even very small changes in volume 1 - 2 db often help to make dense material breath more.

Less is often more if you know what I mean. Good luck

[Drumsound]

How about building the mix around the strings? Put them up first and make everything else fit them.

[Bob Olhsson]

You've most likely got an arrangement problem rather than a sound problem. About all you can do is chop out instruments that are in the way unless you can get some new parts recorded that are designed to work with those string arrangements.

This is a pretty common keyboard player arrangement problem, thinking in and then writing harmony rather than counterpoint. Keyboard players can make real strings sound like samplers and great arrangers can make samplers sound like real strings. Unfortunately, truly great arrangers and orchestrators are a dying breed. I was lucky enough to work with some 30 years ago.

[thethrillfactor]

Originally posted by joeq
I just recorded some great string section parts- great players (all from top NYC orchestras) good room, mics, pres, and soon I will have to mix.

The material is quite dense with lots of percussion, horns, backing vocals, plus the usual guitars bass drums and keyboards. I want to preserve the "bigness" of the string section, but there is not a lot of room in the mix.

When I turn the strings down, they get lost. If I try my usual tricks to get them to cut through, they start to sound like "string samples" instead of real live players.

I am looking for any tips on how keep the strings sounding Big and Real and still somehow fit everything else into the track.

Two words:

Sub compression and the right effects(throw in panning also).

[Steve Smith]

Originally posted by Bob Olhsson
You've most likely got an arrangement problem rather than a sound problem. About all you can do is chop out instruments that are in the way unless you can get some new parts recorded that are designed to work with those string arrangements.

This is a pretty common keyboard player arrangement problem, thinking in and then writing harmony rather than counterpoint. Keyboard players can make real strings sound like samplers and great arrangers can make samplers sound like real strings. Unfortunately, truly great arrangers and orchestrators are a dying breed. I was lucky enough to work with some 30 years ago.

Words of wisdom woth repeating.

[joeq]

great suggestions all- thanks and keep em coming. I am definitely going to try these things the next time I sit down with the tracks.

the arrangements are actually pretty good- the parts really are counterpoint and nothing lays right on top of anything else. i just want to preserve as much of the creamy goodness of the string section sound as I can without having it sound silly or overpower the rest of the instruments.


Thrill, I would be interested to know more about what you consider the "right effects"

[Beezoboy]

Also. . . different reverbs can make a load of difference. Maybe one like a plate, or something a bit harsh could help to bring them out.

Remember that strings are very dynamic, so when they swell over due the swells with the fader and then back of and it will seem more realistic. I wouldn't compress them if I were you.

It has already been mentioned but, panning is very important. If you close miked them, then them like an ensemble would sit and find the appropriate reverb.

Beez

[thethrillfactor]

Originally posted by joeq

Thrill, I would be interested to know more about what you consider the "right effects"

What kinda song is it?

Rock and roll is treated a little different than pop(ballad) or rnb.

If its a lot of string tracks, i like mixing them down to 2 pairs and compressing that(if its rock and roll especially). My fav's right now are either Neve 2254/E,Chandler TG1 or BLUE 230.

Right effects?

I could spend an hour on it.

Its hard to say without listening to the track.

[licendrivr]

Do what I'd do, ask your former teacher Joe! ;-)

[e-cue]

Originally posted by joeq
When I turn the strings down, they get lost. If I try my usual tricks to get them to cut through, they start to sound like "string samples" instead of real live players.

I am looking for any tips on how keep the strings sounding Big and Real and still somehow fit everything else into the track.

Do you know what you are going for? I mean, are the string parts to convey emotion? Or are they supposed to be in the foreground?

I like Spatializing strings when I want them out of the way, but still present. The Desper 8 Channel unit works best for me, but the Edison is also very useful (send a bus to it). If you want them to remain 'big', but out of the way of other stuff, try using the key input on a Pendulum Audio Variable Mu Tube Limiter. Key it from a bus and send a bus from the parts that have the most movement that clash with the strings (vocals, etc). The dynamic squeeze helps get them out of the way. It seems to work better than keying a gate (like the Drawmer 201). YRMV, but it worked great for me. I wish I saw more of the Pendulum units around.

I hate the way string players always play behind the beat. It drives me nuts. I usually find myself nudging them forward in time a few milliseconds.

[Yannick]

I remember once cutting up a stringquartet over 32 bars in a jazz composition. They just played da-da-da-da in straight eight notes - to be able to hear them I had to put them about 10 dB above the rest of the mix (a soprano sax + acoustic guitar !!! NO drums).

Indeed the problem was : they sometimes tend to play late and without attack and swelling towards the end of their notes.

So I cut them up 4x32x2 X 4 tracks and REVERSED every audio part. The result was astonishing : sounded like real jazz musicians ...

(that's me editing the four tracks)

Compression only made matters worse, in this case.

I would suggest getting a bright reverb, as much attack as possible and getting to play them perfectly together - it helps !

[joeq]

hmm I could have sworn I posted this last night just as I was falling asleep...

Originally posted by e-cue
Do you know what you are going for? I mean, are the string parts to convey emotion? Or are they supposed to be in the foreground?

Its all over the map really- on some songs the strings are really pad-like and on others they are carrying foreground melodies and there's even some that stab like horns. The tunes include many different styles of music. There are some slow ballady ones where featuring the strings will be relatively easy but there are a couple where the strings will be duking it out with a full band, extra percussion, extra keyboards, a nine piece horn section, dueling vocalists, and a full gospel choir.

everybody is so in love with the sound of the strings that I know I am going to be asked to bring them up and up in the mix. Of course, the horns and choir are also insipring the same kind of "turn it up" love. The issue is how to do that, or, as many of the excellent suggestions here imply, how to create the illusion that they are up and up in the mix.

Most likely a number of different strategies will have to be employed depending on the song. I am insipred by the many great ideas here. I may end up using all of them before I am done.

[e-cue]

I wouldn't be 100% discouraged if you get them sounding like string samples. "Real" strings can make a song sound dated. The kids out there will probably identify more with them if they did sound more like samples. Unless the cash weilding teenagers aren't the demographic you are looking for.

[Oliver Hart]

Originally posted by e-cue
I wouldn't be 100% discouraged if you get them sounding like string samples. "Real" strings can make a song sound dated. The kids out there will probably identify more with them if they did sound more like samples. Unless the cash weilding teenagers aren't the demographic you are looking for.

Sad but true.

[maxim]

bob wrote:

"This is a pretty common keyboard player arrangement problem, thinking in and then writing harmony rather than counterpoint."

unfortunately, there's not much room for counterpoint in modern rock, what with the 12 gtr tracks, synths, vocals etc etc

it seems strings are relegated to the expensive pad territory

i think your best bet is to use temporal differentiation (ie dropping tracks in and out as the song goes)

also, if the brain hears the 'real' strings (in the intro, for instance), it will extrapolate for the rest of the song (even if use samples from then on)

btw, whar do people do in terms of track breakdown, sections, instruments or the whole thing on two tracks?

[PIUMA]

Gotta have a great reference track: try Ain't Nothing Like the Real Thing, Marvin Gaye and Tammi Terrell.

Hope this helps!

Best,

PIUMA

[MBishopSFX]

Try creating a different virtual "room" (my favorite tool is the TC M6000) for the string section. That can set the section apart from the rest of the track and let it stand more on it's own. Try some compression (2:1) on just the "room" return to the mix. GML 8900 can do this really well, especially if you set the ratio control full CCW and crank the threshold control up. A similar 8900 setting for the string section mix itself may be good too.

.

[lord_bunny]

There are so many things to consider eh? I found that the cellist I use has a note the over-resonates far and away more than the rest of the scale. When I notched that note out, I felt a lot better about bringing up the level of the string bus.

I usually give the strings their own space. Something with a predelay that helps bring out the articulation of the bowing and a long tail than my drum or vocal verb.

A lot of pop string writing I do omits viola and I only create a triad in places where I know the strings are the dominant element, as too much harmony can really get gooey quick.

If you did close mic and room mic, you may find adjusting the blend between the two can help make them pop.

Strings is the one place ITB where I like using a little multiband comp and some extra hi-end from a pultec-style plugin.