Micing and Mic for a Stradivarius!!

[Solar]

Hello Fellas!

Yes i know my title is very "Ose" but thats the truth.. i would liek to know if anyone here can ADVISE me in these two matters:

I'm going to record a Huge project with a Violoniste player who owns a Stradivarius or i think the brother or sister of Stradi called i guess Gwar something, anyways its the same as a Stradi cuz his Vilon COST 1.5 million.

The point here is i'm looking forward to know wich MIC he should purchase when he is Performing on STAGE, what would be the best mic for HIM. And second, waht would be the good mic for him when we record in Studio or if there is more then one kind wich i'm sure, wich one woudl you guyz suggest me.

Because i'm looking also to find him a little MIC that he could use when he wants to record himslef at hom and laydown ideas, but a kind of mic that would still sound good even if its for ideas.

So finally i'm looking ofr 3 differents kind of MIC for him: ONE when he IS performing LIVE, one for the REAL recording SESSION in STudio ofr his album and last a good mic for him to record at home to put down his ideas.

Thank you for any suggestion and information. And even if you guzy have some advise on hwo to mic this kind of TOP notch Violon, every comment is more then welcome.

Truly

[AmekGuy]

Try a Beyer MC930 (SDC). It has a lucious low end, exceptional detail, a silky smooth top end, and a midrange like the KM84, but with more output and much quieter. It is ruler flat, with a slight bump at 10kHz, adding some airiness, and it excels on acoustic sources. Astounding.

[Solar]

Originally Posted by AmekGuy

Try a Beyer MC930 (SDC). It has a lucious low end, exceptional detail, a silky smooth top end, and a midrange like the KM84, but with more output and much quieter. It is ruler flat, with a slight bump at 10kHz, adding some airiness, and it excels on acoustic sources. Astounding.

Hello Amek!

Thank you for your answer.. really appreciate your time but this Beyer is this one for Live performance or Studio purposes?

Also for Violin micing, is it better a Condesner Mic or Ribbon Mic? Anyhow, thank you very much and i will be checking this mic on Google to find out more.

Please any feedback or suggestion is welcome..

Truly

[kats]

I would try a Royer 122V Tubed Ribbon mic.

I haven't used it, nor have I recorded a Strad - but I just stayed at a Quest Inn

[Solar]

Thanx Kats!!

Thank you very much.. i will look at this one too..

[Dan]

So here's me talking about B&K (DPA) microphones again. The 4011 is just an outstanding mic for this kind of thing, because it does not color the sound. If you had a $1.5m instrument don't you think it would be best to accurately represent it? Or, do you think it can sound better than it actually sounds? I'm not really arguing either way, I do think the Royers sound fantastic on violin, and often use them myself, but it is a fairly colored mic. It kind of depends what kind of project it is, and the taste of the client. Being cardiod the 4011 also works well for live, but if you don't like the look of a mic stand on stage, I've also seen the 4060 used effectively. It's kind of extreme to have a little mic on a violin like that, but when it's really gotta be miced up...
I generally don't use ribbons live, but they do excel at sounding sweet in the studio. This is all assuming what you mean by live is for sound reinforcement. If you mean live recording, then just go with a pair of 4006's in the hall or Shoeps 222.

[jnorman]

i would suggest a schoeps cmc6/mk41 for live performance, and the DPA 4011 for the studio work.

[Solar]

Originally Posted by Dan

So here's me talking about B&K (DPA) microphones again. The 4011 is just an outstanding mic for this kind of thing, because it does not color the sound. If you had a $1.5m instrument don't you think it would be best to accurately represent it? Or, do you think it can sound better than it actually sounds? I'm not really arguing either way, I do think the Royers sound fantastic on violin, and often use them myself, but it is a fairly colored mic. It kind of depends what kind of project it is, and the taste of the client. Being cardiod the 4011 also works well for live, but if you don't like the look of a mic stand on stage, I've also seen the 4060 used effectively. It's kind of extreme to have a little mic on a violin like that, but when it's really gotta be miced up...
I generally don't use ribbons live, but they do excel at sounding sweet in the studio. This is all assuming what you mean by live is for sound reinforcement. If you mean live recording, then just go with a pair of 4006's in the hall or Shoeps 222.

Hey Dan!

What i mena by LIVe , i mean LIVe performances.. in SHOWS not in Studio but of course i'm looking also a very good MIC for Studio Live recording for an Album and also a cool mic for the Violinst player at his home portable studio when he wants to laydown some ideas.

Thank you all for these infos, i'm gonna search for these mics and more info are welcome... thank you

[eso]

I have recorded a real Stradivarius in the studio, (amongst other Violins), and in that instance we used a pair of Coles 4038's and a pair of Bruel & Kjaer 4006's.

The Coles were used in the final mix.

[klaukholm]

This all depends on the room and style.

In a good room and the style being classical I like a spaced pair of Neumann M150.
The DPA 4003/4006 are a little more shrill sounding, but good.
Schoeps MK2h and Sennheier MKH800 are also interesting options.

For a spot mic I like the TLM 170 at close range, M149 for close to medium range.

I don't like the DPA 4011/4012 for violin, particularly on the older crisp Strads when metal e-stings are used.

When recording a strad don't go for colored unless the player has issues. You really don't want to substitute a multi million dollar strad sound for $900 Coles sound.

[NathanEldred]

Schoeps CMC6 MK4.

[blaugruen7]

listen to a brauner vm1

[klaukholm]

The most versatile of my options is probably a single neumann M149 seeing as the style is not classical.

This way you have 9 patterns to play with depending on the room. It will work great in his home, yet perform superbly on stage. It is hard to make anything sound bad through that mic.

[d_fu]

Originally Posted by Solar

I'm going to record a Huge project with a Violoniste player who owns a Stradivarius or i think the brother or sister of Stradi called i guess Gwar something, anyways its the same as a Stradi cuz his Vilon COST 1.5 million.

You have NO friggin' idea what you're dealin' with, I think...
The name you're looking for is Guarneri del Gesù. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guarneri - bottom of page)

[Solar]

Originally Posted by klaukholm

This all depends on the room and style.

In a good room and the style being classical I like a spaced pair of Neumann M150.
The DPA 4003/4006 are a little more shrill sounding, but good.
Schoeps MK2h and Sennheier MKH800 are also interesting options.

For a spot mic I like the TLM 170 at close range, M149 for close to medium range.

I don't like the DPA 4011/4012 for violin, particularly on the older crisp Strads when metal e-stings are used.

When recording a strad don't go for colored unless the player has issues. You really don't want to substitute a multi million dollar strad sound for $900 Coles sound.

Thanx Klaukholm!!

By the way i'm going in the recording music style of a mix of Yanni with a House, Dance, techno vibe.. not really Classical and the player is very very good, i dont want a colored Mic... thank you

[Solar]

Thank you all of you for the informations, i think these are really good informations and i will be looking carrefully towards.

But is someone can point at me as the following:

Violin MIC ofr "Live Shows"
Violin MIc for Home studio recording
Vilon Mic for Final recording professional Studio

Thank you

[ISedlacek]

If I can slip in: I would NEVER record solo violin with just one mic, it sounds always a bit poor and one dimensional. Violin radiates quite a broad spectrum of different vibrations which one mic cannot cover. And we also have two ears. For an accurate recording small diaphragm mics would be much more preferable.

I mostly use a pair of omnis for violin (Schoeps MK2). Usually an AB position with the mics about 30-40 cm apart. It is always good to place the mics in some distance from the violin, close miking rarely sounds nice in this case. Quite many times I also tried pairs of SD cardiods but somehow found that the omnis sound always the most natural and rich.

There is often some kind of myth that violin should be recorded with mics placed somewhere very much above it. To my experience it does not sound the best. First, you never listen to a violinist sitting above him and second, this position often collects some undesirable sounds. (After years of experimenting) I found the most natural mics position in front of the violinist (facing the mics in about 45 degrees) at the level of his forehead. In a smaller space in about 2-3 meters distance, in bigger spaces it depends on the overall sound and acoustics. There I would usually use two stereo pairs - one for close micing in 2-3 meters distance and other for an ambience - somewhere in the back (and then mix them up to the taste).

One thing is sure - to record violin well is the same diffcult as to play violin well ... There are so many recordings of the world famous violinists (especially from 10-30 years ago), which sound quite awful ... Sharp, scratchy ...

As for the "Strad" and its price. Nowadays the prices of old violins raised up to quite an insane level. And these very nice instruments are often used just as an investment and being placed in dead company safes, which is a pity. I have come across and played on quite a few of these old violins. They often have some touch of magic, yet even Stradivarius has made quite a lot of just mediocre sounding instruments (out of those about 600 preserved up to now). So the real quality of an instrument is not directly related to its current price and value and there are plenty of contemporary instruments that sound the same good or sometimes even better than many violins of Stradivarius and other Italian masters. So one should not think that the instrument would sound completely different than some other not so legendary instruments. Of course- there are few of them (made by Stradivari, Guarneri and others) which sound simply marvelous and their sound is unmatched. But these are mostly in use by the few world top violinists ... and passed over and over ...

[Dan]

I've never heard the B&K's called "shrill" especially compared to any new Neumann, maybe an M50, or M49. But that's a different than a M150/M149. I could definitely see that, but the M149 is bright mic. It sounds great in omni, I use a decca tree of them often to record string orchestra in the studio, and they excel for that. I could see it working in a pop/electronic scenario as a spot mic. When I've tried using a bright mic like that with classical players, I've gotten the reaction: "That sounds to scratchy, can I get more tone?" Also, if the player is going to use a M149 at home, make sure they get a strong mic stand. Those GC specials won't hold a mic that heavy up, if they're on a boom. Personally, I think a tube mic is a bit of a hassle for home recording. Also if you're going that route, a V72 pre would warm it up nicely!
All that being said, I just cant imagine why you would use that violin for a live techno show. An instrument that's cheaper, but has a built in mic would be much more practical, or even an electric violin. You can raise the roof as much as you want with one of those. What I'm saying is if it's House music, the level of the P.A. system is going to trash any nuance captured by a high end mic. What mic sounds good behind a 50k watt P.A.? A Shure Beta 87! (Or Schoeps CMC6 MK4 if you wanna go high end) The Shoeps CMC6 would also be great for home recording, but I do also like the M222 (tube amp) All of the mics mentioned so far in this thread work great in certain studio applications.

[Lynn Fuston]

I recorded a string quartet that included a Stradivarius violin and a Guarneri violincello. Together worth close to $2,000,000.

I don't recall doing anything different than usual. I used a KM-84 on the violin and a U67 on the cello. I also used a pair of room mics, but what they were escapes me.

[klaukholm]

Originally Posted by Solar

Thanx Klaukholm!!

By the way i'm going in the recording music style of a mix of Yanni with a House, Dance, techno vibe

Considering the style, I actually think you might want to get somewhat close to the instrument. I would opt for both a close sound as well as the spaced omnis.
The M150's will help you get some distance without loosing prescence.
A close large diaphraghm like the TLM170 in cardioid will give you more options later in the mix process. The TLM allows you to get closer to a violin than most any other mic I know.

In a live show situation you will have to get close. One or two M149 will allow you to get relatively close while sounding very smooth.

[klaukholm]

Shrill is maybe a bad description. Glassy maybe? hard to find the word. The 4003/6 is great and we use them a lot, particularly as the rear surround mics for orchestra. It has a certain quality in the highs that is not always flattering to high violin. If the player has absolute tonal control and a dark sound it would work great. The schoeps M222/mk2h/s has a warmer highend and would be a good mic to have around in case others fail.

[Solar]

Hi guyz!

Wow, too many information but worth to read and to try them. Wow, something very important, i'm not a pro at recording Violin in that Calibre but a project is going to start soon in Mid September and i'm gonna especially need to go and get those mic at my Music Store here and get them for a week and try them all in all different ways that you guyz have mentioned here and positionning etc.. espcially for the ALBUM record of this ARTIST.

Now as for the Live show performance, dont worry guyz, he won't be using his 1.5 million Violin in everyshow.. of course not, he has another one and he is going to purchase a Electric one in case but he still want a VERY GOOD LIve Show MIC for his 1.5 million Violin, one that he will be pleased with the sound and that he wont have to change soon.

As for the Mic for himself at his home portable studio to laydown ideas, it doesnt have to be thew TOP notch mic but a good mic that translate well the real sound of his violin with Warm and no coloration if possible.

Wowo i think i'm gonna need to google and find all the websites of all these mics that has been suggested here.

"klaukholm" thank you very very much, Dan, Lynn and all of you, really appreciate it.

If any other suggestion or ways of micing , please DO NOT HESITATE!!

Thank you again

[klaukholm]

I forgot to ask - whats your budget for the Mic Purchases?
Can you rent mics for the occation?

[Solar]

Originally Posted by klaukholm

I forgot to ask - whats your budget for the Mic Purchases?
Can you rent mics for the occation?

Hey Klauk!

Concerning the budget, buget i dont really is a problem, i dont wanna neither spend 5000$ on a mic (wow) but yes i do can RENT MICS and i think that is what i should do first before buying, like that i'll be the judge with my ears. What do u think?

[AmekGuy]

Originally Posted by Solar

Hello Amek!

Thank you for your answer.. really appreciate your time but this Beyer is this one for Live performance or Studio purposes?

It's for studio or live recording applications.

Also for Violin micing, is it better a Condesner Mic or Ribbon Mic? Anyhow, thank you very much and i will be checking this mic on Google to find out more.

The MC930 is a small condensor mic, which is what I prefer on acoustic sources (just a preference). Exceptionally warm sounding mic with rich detail.

[klaukholm]

Being able to rent will help you out a lot.
If I were you I would rent several mics for a day a few weeks before the project and try out your options. No need for two of each as you are just looking for the right sounding mic. Make sure you have the violinist for the day.

I would rent and try theese:
Neumann M50 (M150 if not available)
schoeps cmc5/6 or M222 with an MK2h capsule (omni)
DPA 4006 (try both the silver and the black grids)

TLM170
U87 or U67
mk4 capsule (cardioid) for the schoeps
M149

and something very different like a coles 4038.
Probably not what you want, but you never know.

Kjetil

[Solar]

Originally Posted by klaukholm

Being able to rent will help you out a lot.
If I were you I would rent several mics for a day a few weeks before the project and try out your options. No need for two of each as you are just looking for the right sounding mic. Make sure you have the violinist for the day.

I would rent and try theese:
Neumann M50 (M150 if not available)
schoeps cmc5/6 or M222 with an MK2h capsule (omni)
DPA 4006 (try both the silver and the black grids)

TLM170
U87 or U67
mk4 capsule (cardioid) for the schoeps
M149

and something very different like a coles 4038.
Probably not what you want, but you never know.

Kjetil

Hey Kjetil!

Thank you so much for your time!! So if i understood you well, all these mics that you listed in here are for Recording Studio purposes right? None of them are for Live Show perfromance right? Because i dot believe i would have any problem renting them and good thing you've added some different choice in case they dont have one in particular..

Thank you very much

[Dan]

I have to agree with klaukholm, those are all good choices. I think you could use the Schoeps live, depending on the aesthetic of the stage, and how much the player likes to move around. I rent gear out, but only in the Dallas/Ft. Worth area, so obviously I think renting is a good way to go. If it's a player that wants to run around, I still say a DPA mini-mic into a Sennheiser wireless pack. That's good time waiting to happen. Violinists Gone Wild!

[tmcconnell]

I've done a lot of violins, a couple with the 122. I have never used them on stage but I think they would be great because of the way the null points at the side block out the reflections and bleed from elsewhere. I was shocked by how much "reach" these mics have. I think the key to violins is a mic that "hears" the whole instrument, has amazing midrange detail, and will not accentuate brashness in any way. That's a 122 for sure.

[eso]

Originally Posted by klaukholm

This all depends on the room and style.

In a good room and the style being classical I like a spaced pair of Neumann M150.
The DPA 4003/4006 are a little more shrill sounding, but good.
Schoeps MK2h and Sennheier MKH800 are also interesting options.

For a spot mic I like the TLM 170 at close range, M149 for close to medium range.

I don't like the DPA 4011/4012 for violin, particularly on the older crisp Strads when metal e-stings are used.

When recording a strad don't go for colored unless the player has issues. You really don't want to substitute a multi million dollar strad sound for $900 Coles sound.

Usually I would agree, but for this particular session the violin parts were an overdub for a loud rock band and the artist himself preferred the Coles (they were his own mics too). I just thought I would bring that perspective up, seeing as the obvious choices were always going to be Neumann, Schoeps and DPA/B&K. Guess I should have elaborated further.

Further violin parts were recorded with an electric violin through a cranked, Marshall Jubilee series!