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Recording Mahler 1.Symphonie
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RFrommann
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#1
25th April 2013
Old 25th April 2013
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Recording Mahler 1.Symphonie

Hi

I have the chance to record the concert of a high-level amateur orchestra in the best sounding hall in town (Hamburg). They play Mahler 1. Symphonie.
The orchestra wants a kind of archival recording (main system, no spots) because the stage is very crowded and there is not much time for set up (1,5 hrs). The only place for the main system is to the right of the conductor.
My idea is to set up a stand (3.30m high) with a Schoeps pair of CMC6 +MK2S in AB (60-80cm) and a pair of Schoeps CMC5+ MK4 in NOS. If possible, I would like to place omni outriggers (Neumann Gefell M58) halfway to the sides of the stage.
I was a little worried, when I read about the SRA of an AB system. According to the visualition-tool of german Tonmeister E.Sengpiel for AB 120 it is only 51°, for AB 80 it is 80° and for AB60 it is 118°. For I am nearly in the orchestra with my main system, I wonder wether I get enough signal from the far left and right. With a Decca Tree (where the mics are turned towards the sides) that's probably okay, but with an AB 60, where the mics should be parallel, I am not so sure.
Any ideas of how to improve my planned set up.
Other mics available are a pair of Schoeps MK21 Capsules, Neumann SM69 fet, Schoeps MK8 capsule, Pair of Neumann Gefell M94, Pair of Neumann KM 140
Thanks for your input
Ronald
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25th April 2013
Old 25th April 2013
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If you are close I would use the MK2s in AB with 21's as outriggers about 3 meters to either side. (Don't place them at the edge, they will be useless)

Space the omnis about 60cm, and if you like, angle them slightly out for a little added width.

Don't worry about the Sengpiel numbers. It is interesting for theory but better to trust the standard methods, they work. AB systems are based of of phase delay more than recording angles. The chart is more informative for cardioid based setups.
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26th April 2013
Old 26th April 2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RFrommann View Post
Hi

I was a little worried, when I read about the SRA of an AB system. According to the visualition-tool of german Tonmeister E.Sengpiel for AB 120 it is only 51°, for AB 80 it is 80° and for AB60 it is 118°. For I am nearly in the orchestra with my main system, I wonder wether I get enough signal from the far left and right.
A narrowish SRA of 51° does not mean that signals from outside that arc get recorded weakly. Rather, it means that the sound image spread within that 51° arc gets "stretched" to occupy the area between your playback speakers...while the sounds from outside that arc will start bunching too much in the L and R speakers, with poor lateral discrimination.

So the far left and right sources will give appropriate strength signals, but slighly off-centre signals will get pushed disproportionately too far towards the speakers...the classic "hole in the middle."
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29th April 2013
Old 29th April 2013
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If this is taking place in the Laeisz-Halle, you could also think about flying that main pair from the balcony. Above 3rd or 4th audience row is a good starting place. Often a spacing of about 70 ... 90 cm works well. However, this needs to be well-planned especially as to properly mounting the rope to the balcony and the mics to the rope.

Else I'd go for a high mic stand in the middle like you suggested, and add the MK21 as outriggers about halfway between conductor and side walls.
You might use an "asymmetric" stereo bar, or clip the R mic to the stand and use a horizontal boom for the L mic. This gets your main pair more towards center.

Remember that height also gives you some distance, so the recording angle will be about 120°. That's a spacing of about 70 cm.
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29th April 2013
Old 29th April 2013
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Thanks for your input. The concert took place on saturday in the Laieszhalle Hamburg.
David, I did it as you suggested. Main pair of MK2S in AB 66cm on a stand close to the conductor (at 3.3 meter). I modified an extendable boom from a normal K+M mic stand. I removed the plastic cover on the one end, and added a screw (K+M sent me one as a spare part) like the one on the other side. So I can fix a shock mount on each side and ajust the width with the extendable boom. In the middle of the boom, I added a stereo-bar for a NOS pair of KM 140. I could also set up the boom asymetrically so I came closer to the center. The MK21 stood 3 meters left and right from the main stand at 3 meter. In front of the woodwinds was a pair of CM3 in NOS. So eight channels into a Metric Halo ULN8. I had one hour to set up the whole equipment. Today I had a quick listen to the rough mix and am very happy. Because the two pairs in the center are quite close, I will have to watch out for possible phase problems. May be I can post an example after finishing the project. Thanks for your help again
Ronald
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14th May 2013
Old 14th May 2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RFrommann View Post
May be I can post an example after finishing the project. Thanks for your help again
I would be happy to listen to it.
What i recently used for the Mahler 1st was a decca tree array with three DPA 4006 (50mm spheres) with Schoeps outriggers and some spots. Rough mix. Any comments? Thanks
Attached Files
File Type: mp3 01 Mahler_1.mp3 (4.82 MB, 57 views)
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14th May 2013
Old 14th May 2013
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Quote:
What i recently used for the Mahler 1st was a decca tree array with three DPA 4006 (50mm spheres) with Schoeps outriggers and some spots. Rough mix. Any comments? Thanks
Sounds very nice. I was kind of desiring more width in the strings. Maybe lowering the center decca mic? Just a thought.
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14th May 2013
Old 14th May 2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bremusound View Post
I would be happy to listen to it.
What i recently used for the Mahler 1st was a decca tree array with three DPA 4006 (50mm spheres) with Schoeps outriggers and some spots. Rough mix. Any comments? Thanks
Sounded pretty good, although I felt like the horns were a bit distant. Not too quiet, mind you - just a little lacking in impact. My guess is that they were behind the woodwinds and not spotted?
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RFrommann
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14th May 2013
Old 14th May 2013
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I haven't forgotten to post the soundfile. I just haven't finished the project. Next week I will be able to post an example.
I only had a quick listen to your recording on my macbook. Very nice recording and a good performance

Ronald
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19th May 2013
Old 19th May 2013
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Thanks for your suggestions. I tried to implement them in a new mix - a bit more of the outriggers and the horn spot (as a horn player, i don't like the horns being spotted from behind, so i decided to put the spot in front of them).

Here is another excerpt from the 4th mov
Attached Files
File Type: mp3 01 Mahler1_4excerpt.mp3 (7.12 MB, 56 views)
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20th May 2013
Old 20th May 2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bremusound View Post
Thanks for your suggestions. I tried to implement them in a new mix - a bit more of the outriggers and the horn spot (as a horn player, i don't like the horns being spotted from behind, so i decided to put the spot in front of them).

Here is another excerpt from the 4th mov
Very nice! A marked improvement. (Not that the previous example was bad.) I agree about miking the horns from the front. That is how we listen to the horn, after all.
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