Recording really loud & high-pitched trumpet

[echorec]

How do you do it? Mics? Distance? Other hints? I have lots of great mics & outboard but I can´t really get the sound I want (it feels to thin and distant). Maybe my recording room is too small & dry?

[Roland]

Originally Posted by echorec

How do you do it? Mics? Distance? Other hints? I have lots of great mics & outboard but I can´t really get the sound I want (it feels to thin and distant). Maybe my recording room is too small & dry?

Possibly, but unless the player is really good quality their sound will suffer, even with pro players sometimes there is a tendency to "overblow" and you get that compressed hitting the stops sound. As to mic position it depends a lot on the player, the room, but I would always encourage the use of quality condensors or ribbons, IMHO rarely are dynamics the really best option.

Regards


Roland

[kosi]

I got good sounds with a Royer 121, that was heavy "goboed", means, I built a hut around him to make it really dry (while the rest of the section stood in the room). Worked for me.

I have 8 pdf pages about the recording techniques of Mick Guzauski, John Klemmer, Humberto Gatica and Larry Brown from 1982. If you like, I'll send them over to you. They are not very good copies, bur decipherable Very interesting stuff !

kosi

[dbbubba]

Trumpets can be a B I T C H to record!

I used to do a big band CD for The Dallas Jazz Orchestra once a year. They are made up of ex-NTSU circa 1968 1 O'Clock Lab Band players and the current hotshots at UNT's jazz program. The trumpet players were from the '68 band and they were LOUD! These are cats that were/are some of the top L.A. session players or legendary in their own right in jazz circles. the know their stuff.

Anyways... we would always record the entire big band minus the trumpet section and then overdub them. One reason that we OD'd the trumpets is because heir parts required some very high register stuff and because they were playting as a section they had to play together. If someone split a note in the trumpet section it was as an overdub and wouldn't ruin the take for the entire group. All of the pieces were fairly intense playing and in big band trumpets are expected o be screeching away!

I would always be amazed at how loud four trumpet players could be!
I would usually put up a U-87 pair because it was the best pair of condensers that I had.
I would have prefered a matched pair of tube, large diaphragm condensers, but the U-87s were what I had and it was acceptable.
I had to put the mics back AT LEAST ten feet away.
I also wanted as much room as possible and I was fortunate that the room I was recording in was VERY good. It was an identical copy of Devonshire' B room in L.A. and was and still is a great sounding medium sized room.

Another trick was to have the mics pointed off-axis.
I did this on all of the horn sections.

I studied a lot of films and B&W TV programs with big band stuff and I noticed that if there were mics even on the trumpets they were ribbons. They were really far out front, too. There might be condensers on the bones and saxes, but there might be only a "solo" mic on the trumpets.

I do sound reinforcement for maybe two big bands each year and I rarely even mic the trumpets in an auditorium. I just position the bone mics where they pick up some trumpets along with the bones. I was recording the show I'd probebly put some condensers up IN FRONT of the sax section (10' or more away.)

When only OD'ing a horn section for jingle dates I would put a single large diaphragm condenser between two trumpes, but not positioned on-axis. When mics are on-axis the sound is WAY too bright and edgy.

Try putting the mic back and getting as much usefull room tone a s possible.

The"dry" sound of a wailing trumpets can be pretty small sounding in the upper registers. It is a tiny mouthpiece and it is a small horn shaped bell.

It also takes a good player to get a BIG sound in the high registers.

Danny Brown

[echorec]

Thanks guys!

Hey Kosi, I´d love to check those pdf files. You can send them to 1gunnar (at ) gmail.com

Thanks

[kosi]

okay, sent them out !

[tragedybysyntax]

COuld I also get that .pdf for trumpets? l_weegi(@)yahoo.com

thanks!

[BLUElightCory]

I want to put a HUGE +1 for the Royer R121 for brass and woodwind instruments. If you've got one (or any good ribbon mic for that matter), please give it a try. It's amazing in these applications.

[travisbrown]

If it's a *really* loud trumpet as the OP indicates, do you want to stick a ribbon in front of it?

I'd opt for a 57, RE-20, 421, or even a 409/509/609. I like dynamics on horns, at least for close mic'ing.

If you want to get room sound, then back off and use LDCs like Danny suggests.

Overblowing sounds like crap most of the time, so I hope they are a good player if they are playing that loudly.

The other option is to tell them to play at a better level.

[skatingbasser]

I really liked a Coles off axis on a ska/swing record I'm finishing up.

[Greg Curtis]

RCA KU3A is the world's best trumpet mic!

It has a built-in 45 deg angle, so you just pop one of the right above the music stand and you are set. Here's a pic of Malcom McNab using one:

That's Gary Grant, another top L.A. session trumpet player and great engineer, engineering. Pics from the Royer website. Royer Labs Ribbon Microphones

I've got a trumpet performance Masters from NTSU, splitting the lead parts in the 1 and 2 O'Clock bands (Slater and Riggs), and now I am recording guys like Rick Baptist, Sean Billings, and Robby Schaer (and myself) out here in L.A. now. Loud, high lead players with efficient (shallow mouthpieces) equipment.

Using LDCs is a sure way to get a compressed sound, lots of spit and hyped ugliness, unless you are very careful and smart, like Danny Brown obviously is. Distance, a great room, great players, and off-axis are key with LDCs.

With ribbons you have much more latitude in placement, and the response curve flatters the sound of loud, high trumpets. I've got 121s, Coles, and Beyers, but the 4 KU3As I have sound a giant step better than any of those (KU3A>Coles, 121, Beyer).

[Corran]

Originally Posted by travisbrown

If it's a *really* loud trumpet as the OP indicates, do you want to stick a ribbon in front of it?

I'd opt for a 57, RE-20, 421, or even a 409/509/609. I like dynamics on horns, at least for close mic'ing.

If you want to get room sound, then back off and use LDCs like Danny suggests.

Overblowing sounds like crap most of the time, so I hope they are a good player if they are playing that loudly.

The other option is to tell them to play at a better level.

Ribbons on trumpets are gorgeous. Just because it's loud doesn't mean the ribbon will get hurt. The ribbon can only be damaged by moving air, like blowing on it (even though that's a "soft" sound!).

I've had some great jazz trumpet players play right up into my B&O BM-3 ribbon and it's just fine, sounds fantastic. I always use ribbons for jazz brass players. Trombone too!

And playing at a better level? If the recording calls for a really loud trumpet, let them play it how they want it.

[colinmiller]

Just do a search on Youtube for starwars trumpet and you should find some good techniques. ;-)

[vernier]

Yep, 77 ...and make sure the horn is vintage Olds.
'

[newyorkbrass]

My setup for exactly this:

In a section: Stereo room mics about 10-20ft away

In general: ribbon mic for the lead trumpet screamer - at 4-6ft (1-1.2M) away. If I overdub - second mic parallel to first is a condenser for overdub - to reduce phasing between takes. A figure 8 setup on mic sounds more natural.

recording off axis will alleviate the need to compress and reduce the dynamic range, and the woofyness of the sound.

LEAVE THE DOOR OPEN IF YOU CAN and use headphones to monitor while recording. This will increase the room size. Having brass at 105-110dB you can rest assured that you will not hear the kids jumping and the neighbor's leaf blower in the mix.

Look at the attached pictures below...


Tony is probably one of the loudest lead players in new York - and quite incredible. Here in picture one we are at Ken Lewis's (50 #1 hits) who is seen on the right. Note the small size of room and distance to Mic.

Also in picture two is Kenny Rampton recording in a smallish room, note door is open to increase the room size:

And here in picture three is a picture of the loudest section I know, playing at the loudest moment. I mean loudest. As in "the guy taking the picture got the heck outa there":

[newyorkbrass]

Originally Posted by Corran

Ribbons on trumpets are gorgeous. Just because it's loud doesn't mean the ribbon will get hurt. The ribbon can only be damaged by moving air, like blowing on it (even though that's a "soft" sound!).

I've had some great jazz trumpet players play right up into my B&O BM-3 ribbon and it's just fine, sounds fantastic. I always use ribbons for jazz brass players. Trombone too!

And playing at a better level? If the recording calls for a really loud trumpet, let them play it how they want it.

Ribbons are the BEST for the lead trumpet. The mic in front of Tony in the pic a custom built active ribbon.

[nosebleedaudio]

Try a RE20.. A condenser would be the last mic I would use..IMHO..

[newyorkbrass]

Originally Posted by nosebleedaudio

Try a RE20.. A condenser would be the last mic I would use..IMHO..

A U87 probably has the best sound all around for pop or latin trombone in my opinion. when u record with a non-ribbon dynamic - u loose all the overtones - u get a "sweet" sound when in solo, and then when u try to mix - it does not cut the mix. Most of the fundamentals in trombone are 500-1K range. This is EQed out in the mix, and you are left with nothing else on a dynamic mic.

[nosebleedaudio]

Originally Posted by newyorkbrass

A U87 probably has the best sound all around for pop or latin trombone in my opinion. when u record with a non-ribbon dynamic - u loose all the overtones - u get a "sweet" sound when in solo, and then when u try to mix - it does not cut the mix. Most of the fundamentals in trombone are 500-1K range. This is EQed out in the mix, and you are left with nothing else on a dynamic mic.

In that room and situation is what I meant to say...
The room is obviously very live..and close..

I used a U87 a while back on Trumpet, had to cut upper mids a lot..But it all depends.

[newyorkbrass]

Originally Posted by nosebleedaudio

In that room and situation is what I meant to say...
The room is obviously very live..and close..

I used a U87 a while back on Trumpet, had to cut upper mids a lot..But it all depends.

Ah. Yes, perhaps . - Btw I find that a figure 8 on a condenser - has many ribbon like qualities - similar acoustic mechanism.

It really has to do with mic placement. Use your ear as a microphone placement monitor (stick a finger in it if u have to ) - the distance is crucial - too close and you have a woofy sound and too much dynamic range - too far and you are brittle. Have the mic tilted a little off axis:

The attached picture is taken from a David Summer's article he wrote for Electronic Musician magazine, called “Brass Tactics”, published in their November 2004 issue. However i think it could be closer.

[newyorkbrass]

Originally Posted by Greg Curtis

RCA KU3A is the world's best trumpet mic!

I am going to have to try it