DAW for location surround work?

[hollywood_steve]

Any actual purchase is still a few months off, probably after the new year, but considering how ignorant I am of the available products, I'll need all that time to get a clue.

My needs are extremely basic - I'm an old dog with limited interest in new tricks; I'd rather concentrate on learning to do a few things very well. I have no need for Midi, sampling or automation/recall. And I will never use the system for any recording. So what the hell do I want with a DAW? Surround!

As a location-only guy, (who just sold his 8 buss console!), I really can’t see myself buying 6chs of high quality compression, EQ, etc., or one of those $5k surround capable monitor controllers. I’m almost happy with my 2ch stereo setup; so other than mics and mic preamps, I’d like to hold there at 2ch of top quality gear. Unless surround becomes much more popular, must faster than anyone anticipates, in which case 6 of everything will become a requirement.

But until then, I’d like to investigate handling anything beyond 2ch inside a simple, reliable software system. But I don’t have a clue how to start this search.

In the interim, I think that I’m gonna try a couple of surround gigs by following the purist stereo recording method; a surround variation on the Decca tree (see the great article on the DPA website http://www.dpamicrophones.com/Images/DM1488.pdf ) where each mic represents one channel of the 5.1 format. (and the “point-one” is derived from a low pass filter?) If planned well, this method can be pulled off with no extra gear, until its time for playback. But having the ability to work with the tracks in post will eventually require either some sort of DAW or a substantial hardware investment.

My primary goal for this DAW system would be for it to require the absolute minimum of hardware other than a fast, powerful, well configured PC. If I wanted to invest in a lot of hardware, I’d be looking at one of them swanky 6ch compressors of Eqs that are being introduced. I want a DAW that is as close to 100% software as possible. After that, my only concerns are that it sounds as good as possible and that it has a well designed interface. Hundreds of plugins or the ability to “fix” pitch, timing, etc. are of no interest.

Can anyone recommend a DAW that will allow me control and manipulate surround recordings (made and stored on an 8ch HD recorder) on a basic level?

Thanks.

[Nathanael]

Since I fall into pretty much the same category for 2-ch work, almost exclusively, "on location acoustic stuff", perhaps this will help.

1. Pretty much any DAW on the market will do what you want. In fact, if you are like me, you won't use hardly any of the capability that it has. It seems that you've got to be a heavy production oriented rock/pop/rap kind of artist to really require anything close to what these systems are capable of. It's kind of a wealth of riches for those of us more interested in acoustic music played by musicians who can just walk in, play it in one or two takes and move on to the next thing. Your challenge is going to be finding something simple and uncluttered enough. (This is where all the super-users will jump in and say that you can customize the screens in every DAW... true, true, but sometimes a simple tool will do better than a complex tool dumbed down to make it look simple). You've been in the game long enough to know what you need, and what you'll never use. No use paying for what you won't use IMHO.

2. My setup: I have a 800Mhz Powerbook G4 with Logic Platinum and Spark (2 ch editor). I have a Motu896 that's looking to be replaced with one of the new firewire units (Rosetta 800, Genex with mLAN, etc.) and an external Maxtor HD. The MOTU is only used for A/D, and sometimes I rent the expensive Prism stuff so that it is only used to get the 1's and 0's into the computer.

2-ch stuff generally goes directly into Spark - why bother with the complexity of Logic?

I use Logic when I need: 1) more than two channels, 2) for composition(obviously not related to my location sound work), and 3) dithering using the POW-R dither. Great stuff, and included with Logic. I plan to add the new Sound Designer convolution reverb. I pretty much only use the Mac for audio (it has email and office on it, but that's it), and I like that Logic is owned by Apple - it minimizes issues, IMHO. I watch the forums before upgrading, and have stability that I've never achieved on PCs. (That said, I've also never spent on a PC what I've got in this Mac - if I had, it would likely be just as stable).

For pure ease of use and simplicity, you probably couldn't go wrong with Vegas on any current PC (of course you'll check the forums to see which ones are best, but you know what I mean). The user interface is simple, self-explanatory, and has all the goodies in there, but they aren't in your way. Logic works for me, because I do more than just recording - I use it's scoring and MIDI features, but I wouldn't categorize it as "easy to use".

The same is broadly true of all the big "Audio+MIDI in a box" packages (Sonar, Cubase, Nuendo, Logic, etc.) They are all "deep" programs. In my experience, pretty easy to get going with, but it feels like you could spend a lifetime learning all the features. Probably not what you want.

It might also be worth asking Nathan Eldred about Samplitude. I know a lot here use it and like it, but I don't know enough about it to comment on it's suitability.

Heck, ProTools LE is probably perfectly adequate. You've already got great converters in the Genex, so look at the 001 thingy as a dongle needed to authorize the software! Then you brag that you too have "ProTools" in your studio

[hollywood_steve]

Thanks for the very informative response! The suggestion to check out Samplitude was also made by someone in another forum, so I'll check it out along w/ Vegas.

I'm curious about how those two compare to PT LE as there was a Digi 001 in the studio I shared prior to going 100% remote and I put in some hours fooling around with PT during some down time. (I appreciated the product from a software development angle, but I'd rather use a pair of 57s and a cassette deck - I just couldn't stand working with a mouse and screen. I've spent my life as a non-audio engineer building complex mathematical models and part of the joy of recording is the relaxation I feel twisting big knobs and listening with my eyes closed. Pro Tools made recording feel like my job) I realize that any DAW that I utilize to work with surround files is gonna feel the same way. But that will only be for the occasional surround task. The actual recording has to take place on big expensive hardware that's fun to play with.

[fifthcircle]

I've been doing all of my location recording for years to tape (DA-78) or other similar mediums. Just last week, I finally picked up my new rig for location- I'm using Sequoia (what a surprise for those who know me ) in a setup built by Jeff at Sequoiadigital. Instead of using a laptop and dealing with the liabilities associated with that, it is built on a Shuttle PC that has 1 PCI slot and Firewire... I've got a Lynx2 card with the AES L-Stream. That way I've got 16 inputs that can do 24/96 (between the analog and digital) or 10 that can do 24/192. It also has LTC I/O so no conversion boxes for sync are needed.

Sound is everything I want and then I load the recordings by Firewire disc into my home rig for post. Sequoia (and Samplitude) will do surround work. 5.1 only, but it will do it at any sample rate... I'm sure you could put a similar rig together with just about any other DAW software you choose. I just so happen to really dig Sequoia (especially when it comes to the editing).

This weekend is the maiden voyage for this rig. Got a gig on Saturday and 2 on Sunday. None are particularly complex (all stay under 8 channels) so it is a good chance to give it a go. I'm still waiting for some of my cases, but my CD burner died last week so I need something now that works. I'll keep you posted on how it goes...

--Ben

[Greg Heimbecker]

Good luck Ben! I trust you're draggin a 78 along for BU? I've been avoiding the plunge on a non tape based rig for several years... somehow I calmly go through life without a BU for my 78 but I can't trust a computer on location yet. I'd sure love to skip the transfer hrs (and still bill for them). Forntunately I still have remodeling to pay for and don't need to worry about having money to spend on the location rig...

[atticus]

Well I'm a Logic user myself. I am in the middle of setting up a system using one of our System 1000 cardframes and a Lynx AES card. The cool thing about this setup is that the A/D cards have two digital outs per channel, so having a backup is really easy. But to be honest Logic 6 has been so stable that I don't really sweat it. I highly recommed it based on my experiences!

[Nathanael]

I guess, I'll be showing my age here, but I've never done location work to anything but a computer! Never had any issues. Of course, I've tested everything beforehand, including hours long sessions with microphones listening to the CD changer. But, I'd have to chime in with Atticus, that it's worked well for me.

These Lynx cards keep popping up favorably... I'm half wondering if I shouldn't get one with a Magma PCI expansion chassis for the Powerbook instead of looking at the F/W only interfaces. Hmm...

I'd keep the MOTU just as a computer interface, but it only has 1 AES/EBU in and pretty much all the nice converters are AES/EBU, so I need more ports. Of course, I can use the ADAT lightpipe, but it is limited to 48khz.

That Sequoia system looks really nice. After struggling unsuccessfully for two weeks to get Sonar and Gigastudio working, I completely understand the rationale behind buying a turn-key system. My Logic/Powerbook setup has been so stable that it is kind of a turnkey system on its own.

[fifthcircle]

Yeah... I used to build my own PCs. Since Win XP came out, there is so much crap that Mickey-soft puts in that isn't needed, I don't feel like trying to keep up with another technology (computers and O/S) and what to do to make it work. Better to spend my time working and earning $$ (and enjoying my music) that fighting the computer. Then if there is a problem, I get them to fix it. Jeff (the builder) and I are good friends and I occasionally help him out so I can get a turnkey for a pretty good price. When all the cases are made, I'll post pix of a gig...

That said, I've been using Sequoia for about 3 or 4 years (?? Since its initial beta versions) and it is rock-solid. The issues with it in its released versions are nothing to worry about in a live environment. I can record multi-track hi-def audio with it and non-destructively burn CDs. I'll record to a firewire disc and plug it in to my home/office/studio machine where all my plugins sit for mixing. No transfer times anymore!!! From a workflow stand-point, you can't get better than that. I will be bringing my DA-78 out and I'll be using it to capture the 24 bit 2-track mix. Overkill, but I own it. Eventually, I'll use it to bit-split 24/96 in a 2-track format for backup. I suppose a Masterlink would be better for that, but I don't feel like spending more on something I dont' need... Better to buy some more preamps and converters

The AES 16 card is pretty cool... They've been working with Sequoia systems for some of their internal testing. I went with the Lynx2 because I could get it sooner and I like having a couple channels of conversion on board... It also has a SMPTE input and output that will come in handy when I record on location with sync needed (for film/video scoring or production sound on set) Eventually, I'll get some better converters for the AES I/O. Until then, I'm using my Ramsa AD-96M digital mic pres as preams and conversion for the front end of this system. I'd like a bit better, but my clients are thrilled with the sound.

--Ben

[Nathanael]

I totally agree with you... I'll never build my own audio PC again. I'd much rather spend the time productively. The additional cost is peanuts in the grand scheme of things, and time is $$. If I were to add up the hourly cost of the time I've spent messing with PC's, it is sickening. Turnkey is wonderful. Steve, you really want to get someone to build it for you, so that you never think about it. The stability is there so long as you haven't cobbled it together.

The funny thing about gear is that there is a certain threshold for quality that you have to cross in order to produce excellent results, but then after that, it is totally in your hands as to whether the possible excellence is realized. I'm sure that's why you have happy clients. I often get happy noises from the muso's on playback, and the engineer in me says, "Oh, but there's better stuff out there, I'm sure this could be better with more $$$ gear." But I smile, and say, "Thanks, I'm glad you like it."

It is interesting to me how few musicians are used to critical listening. I've learned that if I am happy, they are thrilled. And if I am thrilled, I get the, "I've never heard my instrument sound that good before, etc." Always good to be your own worst critic, me thinks.

Nathanael
"Excellence is by definition, rare."