Tell me what I'm doing wrong (classical piano)

[jakromm]

In all honesty I would love a mentor, if anyone would be willing to take on the job, IM me on AIM sn is Jakromm. Otherwise...

The piano is a 9 foot steinway

My equipment (bad cause im poor):

Adobe Audition 2.0
Presonus bluetube preamp
Presonus firebox preamp
2 ADK SC-T small condensor mics
1 ADK a51s cardioid mic
1 AKG perception 100 cardioid mic

Note: I use the tube preamp with 0 drive so there is no coloring, just a normal preamp

Let me first post the recording so you can have a listen.
(with 60% noise reduction)
www.apianist.com/new.mp3
(unedited)
www.apianist.com/unedited.mp3

Now what you are hearing is the results of this setup
www.apianist.com/micsetup.jpg

The only "mastering" I did to the recording was a 60% noise reduction on all 3 tracks to get rid of the harsh white noise, although the sound is still badly colored from it. I panned the ORTF -100, 100, and on this mixdown I have the far right cardioid panned to 50. If you have proper panning settings please let me know. I also cut the right cardioid by 3db.

I am lost as far as EQ, panning, mic placement, everything goes. I think mic placement I am getting better at, panning I have a slight idea, and EQ I understand what Im supposed to do, but I dont know how...


Now I want to talk about the room, here are 2 bad pictures to give you an idea.

www.apianist.com/ward1.jpg
www.apianist.com/ward2.jpg

All brick and stone, on the stage where the lights are the ceiling extends pretty high, and I am afraid of sound going up there and getting lost, so I pushed the piano just past that front piece of wood on top. The side wood panels can be swivled, I wasn't sure how to position them but instinct told me to try and make walls with them as best as I could to avoid sound from getting behind them and bouncing around. Again any suggestions on how to utilize these?


Thank you for reading my lengthy post, and even more thanks to anyone who answers any or all my questions.

[pkautzsch]

There are no cooking recipes for recording, especially not for piano.
Actually, your mic setup does look realistic to me. You're not too close with the ORTF pair which gives the greatest part of the sound. Maybe the rear end mic was a little close, and all mics were a bit too high. When I do piano, the mics end up somewhat like 3 or 4ft high, so they're well over the body but not higher than the lid. You should have had a pair of omnis though (by which I mean SDC omnis: real pressure transducers), which would probably have been more natural than cardioids, and especially more natural than *cheap* cardioids.
Lots of good piano recordings have been made with just a pair of omnis.

So, let's have a look at the signal chain.
The firebox isn't the best preamp, but it should be sort-of clean when levelled correctly, and when the mics have enough output. No good with ribbon mics probably. I've never heard about phantom power issues with Presonus so far, but quite some M-Audio devices supply only 30 V instead of standard 48 V. Have a look at that, mics can make strange noises when they don't get enough phantom voltage.

In the end, the software.
Audition isn't bad either. Won't add any noise by itself - but which software does this. But noise reduction plug-ins are no good with music, and especially not with white noise and music. What you have to do is eliminate the noise before recording. The safest way would be to use Schoeps/Neumann/dpa mics and good preamps/converters. The Neumann 180 series isn't that expensive, and especially the omnis are very well worth their money!

As to panning: ORTF +-100% is right. Nothing else when there is space between the mics. As to the third mic, you have to listen where it fits best, if you need it at all. Try just the ORTF pair, and don't be misguided by the existance of a third mic. You don't necessarily need all mics you put up. Try to only use two mics and with those two mics, panned +-100%, get the sound you want. A piano isn't an orchestra with too many 2nd violins.

[jakromm]

Anyone else? By the way, the noise was from AC and other noises at location not from equipment, and thanks for the suggestions.

[pkautzsch]

Well, then turn off the AC next time

[jakromm]

If I could I would :P

Right now I have 3 recording pianos/options.

9 foot steinway, in a somewhat noisy chapel

baby grand, 5-6 foot yamaha, with some issues (keys work inconsitstant) in a nice sounding church, very quiet

and a 9 foot baldwin, thats always tuned perfect, in a factory subroom, maybe 15x15 feet, fairly quiet, but room sucks.

I am thinking my BEST option at this point is, diong a dry recording of the baldwin, and using IR. But in some cases I cant do this, for piano competitions they want untouched audio, so I would have to go with the steinway, since the yamaha is unreliable. This is the main reason im trying to conquer this pain in the ass steinway in that noisy chapel. But if worse comes to worse, I could submit a dry recording of the baldwin. So any advice? Recordings are due end of september D:

[pkautzsch]

I don't think dry recording plus IR can work out as good as one might think. I mean, you would need to go really close, and then to get the piano somewhat balanced, you'd need lots of mics. Plus the Steinway being THE standard for classical music anyway - before using another one you might even want to check if your artist is registered Steinway player which would give him/her a lot of benefits like having a rental Steinway delivered and tuned wherever he needs one. BTW: they would also deliver it to the Church with the Yamaha.
Are you absolutely sure the AC and some other noise sources can't be turned off? I mean, someone turns it on, so that person should also know how to turn it off. As a last option, there's always a fuse which can be switched off or taken out.
Best would be to turn it off for the recording time only, and in breaks and during rehearsal turn it back on.

[joelpatterson]

Certainly some of the "scientists" on the board can give you a whole lot more science than I can-- but I can give you my take.

I used to mic piano from way out, or under, until the day came when they'd set the piano right up against a wall where the air conditioning duct was. So with any normal technique, it would be "piano and vaccuum cleaner duets," and it was quite frankly my problem.

So, out of desperation, I set mics about an inch above the strings, one down at the narrower "bass" end of things and one up to the rightish where the hammers are.
Lid totally open.

And it turned out, when you jockeyed things around a little bit... this gave me a really biting, dramatic, intense and intimate version of what people were playing. Especially classical music that's all soft and sullen, where single notes hit with the force of an invading army... the crispness and the definition and the nuances of the playing were really amplified, the CDs sounded like "surround piano" or something, it was like, super-emotional, much better than what you heard just sitting in the audience.

So, with a few twists and turns, that's what I do today. The ribs of the frame, I find, are key: you set a mic over the far end of the long rib that runs down to the narrow, "bass" end, and then you mic the short rib up at the hammers--maybe not the absolutely last rib, maybe the next one in. An inch or two right over it. Some mics work better than others, and some mics don't work at all, and you need a clean limiter in the chain to handle the pounding, searing parts. And then you hard pan left and right, and the spaciousness of the notes sounding, the lush natural reverb of the box, the clarity, all of it--you go from mushy, thick, blurry piano to immediate, whisper-in-your-ear piano, and the stereo separation gives it all a life of its own.

Might not be for everyone, but it works for me.

[pkautzsch]

I've had good results recording a jazz piano the way Joel does, except for not panning the mics hard L/R. Gives me lots of options and little bleed not only of AC, but also of drums and stuff. If unprocessed, very intimate, right.
But that's why I don't like the sound for classical: it's just too intimate and present for my taste, like "sitting in the piano" (which it basically is) instead of sitting in the best seat of a good hall. There just isn't any "realistic" listening perspective.
The important thing in getting a good piano sound to me is to have the right amount of natural ROOM reflection.
Where I could imagine a setup like Joel's really well, OTOH, is a *real* surround recording of modern piano music. 5 mics.

[Gerax]

My approach to record piano has developed lately, after a few experiments and borrowed ideas from other engineers.
I was doing piano with 2 close mics and my usual OH stereo pair (I favor ORTF for all of my classical and acoustic recordings); the close mics were usually one over the high strings hammers, about 15", and the other over the bass strings at the tail end of the piano; I used to pan them and mix them with the main sound coming from the ORTF pair. It worked, but lately I had to record piano in some more complex ensembles, and this gave me the opportunity to try out some more things. Since I had to achive a great degree of control over the piano's sound I decided to mic the piano right over the hammers just beyond the keyboard, about where you have the music stand, wide left and right with SD cardioid mics; I added another pair of mics right over the piano curve, halfway between the edge of the piano and the full stick open lid, these in an ORTF pair, not too deep inside the piano, jus on the edge looking over the harp. The main ORTF pair was there as always. I know, this is 6 mics total for a piano, but, if you think that the main ORTF pair is for the whole ensemble and that I mixed the two "hammer" mics just enough to have a bit more attack where needed it's not that over the edge. I always multitrack everything, because I really want to have total control in mixing.
Sure, if you have a good piano (I like Bosendorfers a lot) in a great hall played by a great pianist..well...you may only need two mics in the right spot, otherwise I try to go for a flexible approach that'll allow me to have control in post, should one of the variables (piano, player, hall) have any flaws.
I like Audio Technica AT4040 as ORTF - on the piano - and AT4041 or KM184 or Rode NT5 as "hammers" mics. For the main ORTF pair...the better you can use (LD condensers sound good to me, but in trickier rooms SD are good too) the better the overall sound. I tend to use clean preamps, like Focusrite ISA428 which are clean enough even for classical, but are not lifeless and boring, and have lots of clean gain and headroom (plus impedance selection which helps choosing the right sound for the mic and source).
Turning off any external noise maker is crucial: as suggested above just try to have the AC turned off during recording sessions and then have it back on during breaks; I also suggest you do a fair amount of takes: in a noisy environment (traffic noise, people passing by etc...) that extra take can save the piece ruined by an accidental car horn in one of the quietest passages...belive me, I've recorded piano pieces in some of the kst uncomfortable situations you could immagine (noisewise) and editing really saved the day.
I'd go with the Steinway piano in the good hall, trying to get as much material as possible from the player, and editing where necessary afterwards (clams or noises); IRs on a dry piano track may work for a pop production, but not in a classical situation (or even jazz...).

Hope this helps

L.G.