Semi-Live Recording

[peter-parameter]

Looking for adivce.
We are scheduling a bass band for recording. 13 instruments..trumpets (6), trombones (3), tubas(2), sousaphone (1) and percussion.

They desire a studio recording and then a second session where a live audience interacts with the music (I imagine over a PA) and to have the final mix delivered with the audience session mixed in as if recorded at a live show.

I'm not ashamed to admit I've done this bit with crowd samples for rock material I've recorded (more as a joke or lame-ass production value for some of my recording victims) but with a brass band I cant quite imagine.

Any ideas. I suspect we shall have a room of of some larger size for the crowd. How would you mic this crowd? how would you allow the crowd to 'monitor' the recordings - the crowd is supposed to sing-along in some sections.

I haven't got a clue.

Ideas.

[Remoteness]

Let me see if I got you right…

You want to record your bass band in the studio and would like to capture audience from a second session in a larger room with a live sound system.

Once the studio date is recorded schedule the second session and perform the tunes in the same order as the studio recording so the audience sequence is a “no-brainer” to put together. Place your room mics accordingly. More on this in other future posts (I hope the forum members will add their take.) If you don’t need the live concert performance because the studio tracks are what you’re using setup the mics to capture the best possible audience tone.

Back in the studio align the start and end points of the studio and live audience applause tracks. Once there where you want them blend / balance the audience tracks under the original music.

I have a technique I use when laying back (different) audience samples in a track. I get the audience to music balanced just right. Once I got it exactly where I think it’s perfect I bring it down a hair more because it seems to always sound a bit louder when you hear it back days later.

I got to run… More on this later.

[peter-parameter]

I said Bass band...I meant BRASS band...sorry.

You got the jist of the idea. Only exception is that the audience will at certain times during the performance sing along with the band thus making some sort of monitoring arrangement necessary so the audience can have some clues where to sing and applaude.

How does one set up monitoring for something like this? Minimizing (I guess) monitor sounds bleeding into the mics for the crowd.

Also, I would really dig some insights on how to mic the audience. I have no ideas about the room - so a general discussion would be great to get my mind around the concept....hell, I can barely (rarely) mic a trumpet or a snare drum as well as I'd like (and I've been trying for a while) but I have no reference or starting point for an audience exclusively.

Thanks for the response.
PP

[Remoteness]

Yes, brass band... that makes a lot more sense.

Will the band be using a click track for both performances? If not, consider doing so.

So, how many people are we talking about… the audience that is?

Wireless receivers or (Walkman style) FM radios with headphones come to mind. Not everyone will need to wear them if there’s a conductor or director giving cues.
If you must go with monitor speakers think about distributing many smaller speakers rather than fewer larger speakers. Try to keep the volume level as low as possible.
Remember, you have the audience director on headphones directing the crowd.

Once we get through this portion of the production venture we can discuss various mic'ing techniques. But, first things first – Monitoring is key. Let’s lock this situation in before we get into the mic'ing scenarios.

Also, does the band have to play live or can it be a listening session with audience record capabilities? That’s how they record post tape laugh tracks. Everyone’s in a miked up room viewing the show on various screens while listening to individual headphones. You’ll have total isolation for a very clean audience participation track doing it that way. Can you do something like that? Sounds like a killer plan if you can sell the idea to your client.

Now, who's going to start off on the audience miking ideas? Any takers out there?

[Roland]

Live brass band recording with a pre-session fix/safety recording right? I've done a lot of this, its pretty standard stuff, however I would endevour to get the session in the same venue as the final recording as the sound should match (hopefully close enough to possibly drop the safety into the final master as a patch should needs be). I would strongly recommend against using a PA system(unless its a "big/swing band" recording) good brass players can take your head off without any further amplification.

If I've got the type of job wrong my apologies you might want to give us a few more details.

Regards


Roland

[celticrogues]

There is a technique I have heard about but never tried - seems like it may work in your situation. The way I had heard of it was if someone would be using a choir in a rock song, for example, another situation where there are lots of people who would all need to be able to hear a monitor. You would set up monitors in the room and mic up the choir (or in your case, the audience) as normal to get the best sound. You would then go through the piece or pieces once to get a great take, not really worrying about bleed into the mics. Once you have a great take, the choir leaves, but you do not touch anything - leave the mic and monitor setup exactly the same. Then, you play the backing track again and record it with that same mic setup. Come mixdown, just reverse the phase of the second recording, and the backing track dissappears, or at least goes away enough so that whatever is left can be easily hidden in the mix. You will probably have to vary this somewhat because you are dealing with a live band, not a previously recorded track. Although I suppose what you could do is play the studio tracks through the PA and have the brass band "lip synch" to those, then play them through the PA again to phase cancel.
Another thing to consider is that brass bands can get pretty loud. You may not need a PA for the group - just have them play if it is a good venue. In this case, you probably will not want to phase cancel anything because if you use directional mics for audience pickup anything that bleeds from the band into the mics will just help the final mix sound realistic - like it was all performed in the same room with the audience.
Good luck and I hope this helps!
-Mike

[peter-parameter]

Great responses and thanks for the input.

Some more details that may lend to more specific responses and ideas for pulling this feat off.

As I understand at this point, the band will rent an appropriate space for the studio recordings - musical hall or theater of some type. Unfortunately, this space will likely not be the same as the space where the 'audience' will be subsequently recorded due to geographic constraints (the band will travel to recording location as necessary but the 'audience', some 60 people, will be recorded in a location central to the audience members i.e., the band's hometown).

Now as foreground, the concept of a 'semi-live' performance comes from having done this in the past with results that satisfied the band. However, the band representative we are speaking with is rather, shall I say, unfamiliar with some of the nuts and bolts of the recording process and can provide little insight as to how the process was executed in the past.

To Roland....As I currently understand the initial recording will not be a safety/pre-session recording....it will be the final audio tracks for the finished project. Therefore, during the recording of the 'audience' there will be no band present (unless they also are participating as part of the audience). Thus, no live band at the audience session and only the recorded material from the band recording session. Once again, this is how the band representative has described the previous 'semi-live' recording done by this group.

I suspect that the room for the audience session will be some type of hall/meeting area (15-20 meters wide and 40+ meters in length the concrete walls and little if any acoustic treatment....Imagine a 'Verterans of Foreign Wars' meeting hall & bar). Likely a very difficult acoustic environment and the size presents a number of concerns for mic placement to record the crowd as well as monitor placements so the crowd can interact with the previously recorded material.

If I can just get an idea of 'how to execute' I think I might have some success getting my head around some finer points but to be honest, I feel totally lost and in over my head.

I hope this additional information helps and please keep the ideas coming.
-PP

[Roland]

Originally Posted by peter-parameter

Great responses and thanks for the input.

Some more details that may lend to more specific responses and ideas for pulling this feat off.

As I understand at this point, the band will rent an appropriate space for the studio recordings - musical hall or theater of some type. Unfortunately, this space will likely not be the same as the space where the 'audience' will be subsequently recorded due to geographic constraints (the band will travel to recording location as necessary but the 'audience', some 60 people, will be recorded in a location central to the audience members i.e., the band's hometown).

Now as foreground, the concept of a 'semi-live' performance comes from having done this in the past with results that satisfied the band. However, the band representative we are speaking with is rather, shall I say, unfamiliar with some of the nuts and bolts of the recording process and can provide little insight as to how the process was executed in the past.

To Roland....As I currently understand the initial recording will not be a safety/pre-session recording....it will be the final audio tracks for the finished project. Therefore, during the recording of the 'audience' there will be no band present (unless they also are participating as part of the audience). Thus, no live band at the audience session and only the recorded material from the band recording session. Once again, this is how the band representative has described the previous 'semi-live' recording done by this group.

I suspect that the room for the audience session will be some type of hall/meeting area (15-20 meters wide and 40+ meters in length the concrete walls and little if any acoustic treatment....Imagine a 'Verterans of Foreign Wars' meeting hall & bar). Likely a very difficult acoustic environment and the size presents a number of concerns for mic placement to record the crowd as well as monitor placements so the crowd can interact with the previously recorded material.

If I can just get an idea of 'how to execute' I think I might have some success getting my head around some finer points but to be honest, I feel totally lost and in over my head.

I hope this additional information helps and please keep the ideas coming.
-PP

The reason you feel totally lost is the same reason all of us sound totally lost over this, whatever they are thinking of I don't know, but its the most daft, silliest idea of making a recording I have ever heard of. If the idea is to get some aplause to go over their "studio" recordding, just get some canned stuff from a sound effects library, in my experience I don't ever remember people aplauding the playback of a recording, it seems like little point.

Good luck, you're going to need it!

Roland

[peter-parameter]

Roland....That was indeed my first response....WHY?

If you want a live recorded performance DO IT THAT WAY - with all of its potential pitfalls and benefits.

I appreciate your feedback and would still welcome any ideas on execution as we work with the band representative to refine thier desires and expectations

I do find the concept of micing a crowd an interesting discussion and would welcome ideas on that.

Thanks again.
-PP

[Roland]

Originally Posted by peter-parameter

Roland....That was indeed my first response....WHY?

If you want a live recorded performance DO IT THAT WAY - with all of its potential pitfalls and benefits.

I appreciate your feedback and would still welcome any ideas on execution as we work with the band representative to refine thier desires and expectations

I do find the concept of micing a crowd an interesting discussion and would welcome ideas on that.

Thanks again.
-PP

This is where you take off your recording hat and put on your business/salesman hat. In this situation you have to listen to what the customer wants, then sell them what they need. It is possible that they want this as a demo and think that with the sound of aplause the listener will think that they actually play that well live.

If you get stuffed with recording applause I would use a simple stereo mic/pair set-up facing the audience.

Regards


Roland

[Remoteness]

Peter,

What did you end up doing?

[peter-parameter]

Well.....it happens like this.

Turns out the need for the band to record in the studio and overdub crowd was necessary because the band was unable to execute up to standard. Very loose band with many mistakes making much editing and overdubing necessary.

Upon completion of studio recording, a PA playback system was used to 'broadcast' the performance to the audience and using a set of cardioid mic faced towards the crowd to mimimize the bleed from the PA we captured the audience. And since the crowd was recorded with the 'near final mix of the band' all audience participation spots (were the crowd sings with the band) were in sync with the performance.

A lil creative mixing made the 'crowd' blend reasonably enough to simulate a live performance.

All in all a reasonable learning experience but not one of my more enjoyable jobs.

Thanks for the input
PP