Anyone had success with spaced omnis on small ensembles?

[mosrite]

I want to use omnis. I want half decent imaging but can live without pinpoint imaging if the overall sound is better. Has anyone therefore had any sucess that they can recall using spaced omnis (perhaps 40cm gap or so) with a small ensemble like string quartet?

Alternatively is there any imaging advantage using an MS array with an omni as mid over narrowly spaced omnis? (I have tried it in less than ideal circumstances and found the imaging of the MS array poor).

I used widely spaced omnis on a small opera performance the other day and quite enjoyed what I heard. Will this enjoyment translate to a small tight group though?

Cheers,.

[t_chance]

Have you ever tried a Jecklin disc?

http://www.core-sound.com/jecklin/1.php

[DaveD]

Originally Posted by mosrite

I want to use omnis. I want half decent imaging but can live without pinpoint imaging if the overall sound is better.

No experience unfortunately, but I've read that omnis with Jecklin disk give wonderful imaging.

http://www.josephson.com/tn5.html

[pkautzsch]

As probably everybody here already knows, I'm not a big fan of Jecklin disc setups.
I think a 40 cm spaced omni setup can be quite good. Theoretically it won't fill the room between the speakers completely, but that's good with small ensembles anyway. Great results with 18 cm spaced omnis for voice soloist. For quartet I've been using ORTF or similar in most cases. Only once I did ~35cm spaced MK21.
Spaced omnis are IMO the best way to get really spacious sound. They need, however, the most experimentation and adjustment, whereas ORTF is sort of fire-and-forget, and they DO need a perfect room.

[T.RayBullard]

I choose Jecklin over spaced pairs most of the time.
Very good imaging/localization, and much more consistant results, in my experience. with Jecklin you get all of the benefits that can come from spaced pairs, with none of the hassle.

Simon Eadon won a grammy with schoeps omnis and a Jecklin Disc, recording the Takacs Quartet.

(album is here)>> http://www.cduniverse.com/productinf...81175393&BAB=M

[mosrite]

Spaced omnis are IMO the best way to get really spacious sound.

I suppose for a small ensemble I wouldnt really strive for a big spacious sound. I guess the dilemma is getting that natural sound that only omnis seem to deliver but not the size. A more focused sound would suit my tastes more for a small ensemble but I am beginning to become quite allergic to cardioids.

I've been using ORTF or similar in most cases. Only once I did ~35cm spaced MK21.

How was the spaced MK21's? Did you also try them in ORTF by any chance?

[T.RayBullard]

Originally Posted by mosrite

A more focused sound would suit my tastes more for a small ensemble but I am beginning to become quite allergic to cardioids.

All the more reason for Jecklin Disc. Natural Sound, Precise Imaging....

[sonare]

I second the Jecklin over my previous chamber group approaches-- either Schoeps MK21 in ORTF or omnis spaced 19 inches.

For me the M-B Jecklin has it all-- excellent imaging, the stereo image is not too wide, omni sound-- what's not to like?

Rich

[T.RayBullard]

also, MOSRITE, if you want to try a jecklin before you buy, I will send you mine.

[Don S]

Originally Posted by T.RayBullard

also, MOSRITE, if you want to try a jecklin before you buy, I will send you mine.

Hey Teddy,

Ever compare the Schneider disc to the Jecklin?
Also - Truth is now going to be mass produced and you can't get them for a while. What did you use to power these babys?

[T.RayBullard]

Originally Posted by Don S

Hey Teddy,

Ever compare the Schneider disc to the Jecklin?
Also - Truth is now going to be mass produced and you can't get them for a while. What did you use to power these babys?

Hey Mr. S.., the only advantage the Jecklin has to schneider is better playback over headphones. (which I dont care about).



Speakers..I sent you an email, MR. S.

[pkautzsch]

The spaced MK21s were the best I could get in that room (which was quite crappy - posted a thread about that on gearslutz). Well, they were good enough to not pick up lots of crappy room reflections, but to actually give some good space. Still had to use quite a bit of the individual spot mics though.
Whenever I try MK21, I end up using them. I would never try them as main pair for orchestras though. For string quartet they are "natural" enough, when "natural" means linear bass response.
What I would prefer over the J-disc is the Schoeps KFM. It basically works the same way (pressure transducers with something between them), but guarantees that there are no reflection issues leading to comb-filtering effects. I *did* do some recordings with it, and the only thing I dislike is its very fixed 90° recording area which forces you to be farther away than you often like. Spaced omnis are more flexible there, as I can first find the spot with right direct/reverb ratio and then adjust spacing to get the desired stereo width.

[T.RayBullard]

Originally Posted by pkautzsch

but guarantees that there are no reflection issues leading to comb-filtering effects.

there are no comb filtering issues with a well designed disc. also, the KFM is prohibitively expensive, and not nearly as flexible as OSS.

[d_fu]

Originally Posted by mosrite

I want to use omnis. I want half decent imaging but can live without pinpoint imaging if the overall sound is better. Has anyone therefore had any sucess that they can recall using spaced omnis (perhaps 40cm gap or so) with a small ensemble like string quartet?

I do so all the time. Either with a set of diffuse-field AKGs facing outwards, spaced about 60cm, or with a pair of Neumann KM131, facing straight forward, at a distance of roughly 1m, +/- whatever....

Recorded a nice concert with two Viola da Gamba and a Harpsichord yesterday with the Neumanns (and some carefully applied spot mics). It's got all the imaging I need (I don't consider that the single most important aspect of my recordings), sounds nice and omni and is sufficiently mono-compatible. Care for a little audio clip? Unfortunately, there was an awful lot of noise outside the church - I never understand why they had to build all these nice churches right next to major roads...


Here's an interesting (an IMHO better) alternative to discs, by the way: Clara (see attached pic). Somewhat like a dummy head, but fully speaker compatible. Excellent imaging, even with some top/bottom localisation. Uses omnis at ear-distance. I don't use it often, but it can be a bit of a secret weapon. E.g. it produced an excellent result in a concert where there was taped electronics from speakers along with live music. It's out of production and extremely hard to come by - but I happen to know the inventor, and if a sufficient number of people are interested, maybe we could try to reproduce a batch...

Daniel

[David Spearritt]

This looks very close to binaural recording to me, it will sound nice with headphones, but on loudspeakers ....

To me, a rock solid accurate stereo image is everything in recording small ensembles, especially string quartets. I want the front or second front row seat perspectve with actual source location.

I always try to use Blumlein with a cello spot. However, I am yet to try Jecklin, although the results I get with Blumlein in our excellent room are simply too good to bother with more experiments, hence the delay.

[Surreal]

Originally Posted by d_fu

... if a sufficient number of people are interested, maybe we could try to reproduce a batch...

Daniel

*expressing interest*

[sonare]

Originally Posted by David Spearritt

I always try to use Blumlein with a cello spot. However, I am yet to try Jecklin, although the results I get with Blumlein in our excellent room are simply too good to bother with more experiments, hence the delay.

My problems with Blumlein for small chamber stuff are 1) getting the right presence and not exceeding the proper width to keep the phasing straight (nothing too far right or left) and 2) not getting an exaggerated ensemble width. I always end up needing to fold-in a quartet, so then one needs something spacious (room mics or external reverb) to allow the sound to propoerly bloom.

Rich

[d_fu]

Originally Posted by David Spearritt

This looks very close to binaural recording to me, it will sound nice with headphones, but on loudspeakers.

It will sound nice as well... It's not a dummy-head.

Daniel

[pkautzsch]

Well, ear distance isn't exactly what I'd call a sufficient reason. I'd rather leave that word out of recording techniques for speaker playback, and best out of all recording techniques, since there are people with a more than those ominous 17.5 cm between their ears, and other people with less than 17.5 cm. I'd love to hear a sample of a "Clara" recording though, ideally in comparison to a spaced omni setup from the same session, maybe it actually *does* sound good.

Teddy,
a *well designed* disc might not produce comb-filtering, right. Just a gut feeling, though, still prevents me from using it. BTW I'm not the only person who actually dislikes some recordings Dr Jecklin himself made.
The KFM is really way too expensive - I know some guys who have made their own KFM from wood, and I think they even used Schoeps capsules. The one I tried, though, was the prototype which the person who developed it gave me. For free.

[David Spearritt]

1) getting the right presence and not exceeding the proper width to keep the phasing straight (nothing too far right or left)

Yes this is something to watch, although with small ensembles like a SQ, its easy to fit them well into the 90 deg.

2) not getting an exaggerated ensemble width. I always end up needing to fold-in a quartet, so then one needs something spacious (room mics or external reverb) to allow the sound to propoerly bloom.

Again, something to watch. For most string quartets the edge players subtend an angle of about 60-70 deg when the pair is set correctly, and this gives a realistic and accurate positioning as the sources were on stage, assuming you are sitting in the first few rows of the hall. We also have a beautiful hall (1200 seats) with excellent but not excessive reverb, so the back lobes pick up plenty of bloom.

You are right Rich, these are the two most important issues to watch, but when you have them under control, or even better, Blumlein gives a superior result.

[mlutthans]

I was the engineer on this CD, which features three pieces for clarinet and piano, and one piece for clarinet solo. On the solo piece, it's three omnis (Gefell M296). The other pieces are two-omnis with a Sennheiser MKH 50 replacing the middle omni, to bring out the clarinet a bit over the piano.

You can hear some (mediocre quality) mp3 samples if you scan down the Amazon page.

Lots of chamber/small stuff on Mercury "back in the day" was recorded with three omnis.

Matt

[jnorman]

a combo of an ORTF main pair with omni flanks, or ORTF main pair plus a spaced omni pair (set up a bit closer than the ORTF pair), can be a versatile option - plenty of opportunity to blend or combine to taste during post. you can get the spaciousness and low end benefits of the omnis and the more precise imaging or the ORTF pair.

[RobAnderson]

The room has to be good, but using small AB with omni's on small ensembles is usually my first choice.

In "not-so-good" acoustics, the MK21 is my "go-to" option, but generally I will try omni's first. Cardioids are generally a last resort, but ORTF can be good when you need a "point-and-shoot" option, if there are multiple types of ensemble in the concert, or if the acoustics will need to be really controlled in the recording.

Why am I using so many "quotation marks?"

[Don S]

30 inches is where I'll start with smaller ensembles. This works well with the MK2H. I enjoy the open sound of spaced omnis, but sometimes I have to angle them slightly in or out to be happy. And as mentioned previously, the MK21 can do a respectable job in almost any situation.