Can close micing a trumpet damage my condenser mic?

[joesmohello]

Sorry if this is a stupid question, but I have just started to build my setup and right now the only mic I have is a Rode NT4 stereo condenser. I play trumpet and it seems like dynamic mics are used more than condenser mics for recording trumpets. Is this because the levels from the trumpet can harm a condenser mic, or just because dynamic mics capture the sound better? I could always go out and buy an SM57 for now, but I would rather save the money to buy a nicer second mic later. Thanks.

[Jay Kahrs]

Ehhh, it's really a little of both. Dynamics tend to be more durable and have a rolled off top compared to most condensors. As long as you don't jam the mic into the bell you should be ok, just keep it at least 2-3 feet back. You'll probably have to roll some top off or point it away from the trumpet before it sounds "right" to you. At least, that's how it usually goes for me.

[James Lehmann]

Originally posted by joesmohello
...I would rather save the money to buy a nicer second mic later.

The (spam deleted by moderator) is a very good choice for this. It has a very high SPL and sounds great. I wrote a http://www.disney.com of this mic on the (mystery) Forum, and since then I've used it successfully several times on our trumpet player who is loud man, loud!

[joesmohello]

Thanks for the info. My Mbox just arrived today, so lots of fun ahead. I'll follow Jay's advice and play around with different placements 2-3' away from the bell.

Yikes, James. That mic is a bit out of my $$$ range. I bought the Rode mic for $300 on Ebay, lol.

[NathanEldred]

Originally posted by joesmohello
Thanks for the info. My Mbox just arrived today, so lots of fun ahead. I'll follow Jay's advice and play around with different placements 2-3' away from the bell.

Yikes, James. That mic is a bit out of my $$$ range. I bought the Rode mic for $300 on Ebay, lol.

That Rode is going to be extremely bright on trumpet. Prepare to pull a few db's of shelf out above 2k.

[joesmohello]

Thanks for the tip, Nathan. I am an extreme newb, so I have no idea what that means, but I should figure it out in a day or two. Thanks.

[Jay Kahrs]

2khz is a frequency. dB stands for decibels. Cutting or boosting should be pretty self explanatory. +3 at 5khz means your boosting that freq. by 3dB.

Hope that helps,

[Ckevperry]

And any cheaper condenser is going to thin out so much from trumpet that eq won't make a difference. I would use the 57 over that small diaphragm rode. Trumpet thru that will bite your ear off.

If you are a trumpet played by trade....I would save my money and audition some ribbon mics like:

- the new AEA R84 (which I haven't heard but a fellow engineer say's is wonderful on trumpet)

-Royer 121 which sounds great on trumpet

-Coles 4038 which is great


The first 2 are around $900 new.

[Bob Olhsson]

A 57 can actually work out great on a trumpet! I've known folks who left an RCA 77, a U47 and a U87 in their mike closet in favor of a 57.

[Beezoboy]

I have gotten very useable results out of a MXL V67. $100 or less at most places. It is nice on flugel horn and trumpet. I miked it from about 1 or 2 feet away a bit off axis. (off axis just means at an angle to the mic, not straight on)

It was used as for an audition to the International Youth Wind Endsemble in Sweden, and the guy made it. He is a really good player.

Here is the flugel horn recording

www.elohsa.com/beezoboy/Flugel.mp3

Beez

[joesmohello]

Thanks again for all of the great advice, and thanks for that recording, Beezoboy. Interesting, I've never heard of an audition recording being done without accompaniment.

I noticed that condenser mics and ribbon mics were suggested. I was under the impression that dynamic mics were the best for trumpets, but it appears that I was wrong. So am I correct in saying that using my Rode condenser 1'-2' away from my bell will not damage the mic? That was my main concern. I emailed Rode with the same question a week ago, but they have not gotten back to me yet.

Next on my list are a midi keyboard and a FW hard drive. After I get those I'll definitely be checking out the other mic suggestions here.

[dtobocman]

Originally posted by joesmohello
Thanks for the info. My Mbox just arrived today, so lots of fun ahead. I'll follow Jay's advice and play around with different placements 2-3' away from the bell.

Yikes, James. That mic is a bit out of my $$$ range. I bought the Rode mic for $300 on Ebay, lol.

You might like an RE20 for near the price used. It's a very versatile dynamic and can work on damned near every source besides acoustic guitar, incuding vocals, where it really excels.

[Jay Kahrs]

Originally posted by joesmohello
So am I correct in saying that using my Rode condenser 1'-2' away from my bell will not damage the mic?

Keep it at least 2 feet away. Besides, closer isn't beter with brass. The sound needs some distance to become one with the room.

[Bob Olhsson]

There's a very directional cone of very nasal, somewhat unpleasant sound that comes out of the center of a trumpet bell. Just put the mike above, to the side or below it.

[joesmohello]

2'-3' away and off center it is, then. For some reason I was always told to put the mic (usually SM 57s for live performance) about 1' directly in front of the bell. I have tried a few things with the NT4 and my trumpet and the sound quality is quite useable for my learning purposes right now. Thanks again.

[joesmohello]

I finally got a response from Rode:

"You can use the NT4 for your situation.
It does have a high SPL, but you may want to use a pop-filter
To block the spit from the horn."

Can some one please tell me what an SPL is? I've never seen anyone use a pop filter when micing a trumpet. Is that usual? Maybe he thought that I wanted to get right up on the mic. Ah, now I know better, thanks to you guys, lol.

[James Lehmann]

SPL stands for Sound Pressure Level and (to skip a lot of more technical info I'm sure someone else will chip in) is basically the figure used to measure how loud your source sound can be before the mic distorts. Trumpet is traditionally at the loud end of studio recording along with kick drums etc, so in broad terms the higher the quoted SPL of the mic the louder sounds it can handle. Of course once you're up near 140dB we're into Aircraft taking-off territory so it's unlikely you'll need a mic that handles this(!) but there are some mics with lower SPL's that wouldn't suit a trumpet very well.

Most half-decent modern condensers should be able to handle a trumpet, loudness-wise unless you stuff the mic right into the bell (which is not to say they would all sound equally good!) and if you have distortion or find yourself overloading anything just move the mic back a little and/or engage the PAD switch on the mic itself or pre-amp.

[joesmohello]

Thanks for the clear explanation.

[Jay Kahrs]

SPL is also related to but not the same as air displacement. The more air something moves the greater the chance of destroying or damaging the mics diaphragm is. Look at the port on a speaker cab for example, not a lot of SPL there but there's a whole lotta wind coming out. Either one can damage a mic.

The basic rule of thumb is don't put the mic (some condensors and especially ribbons) anywhere you wouldn't put your own ear.

As for mic placement, live vs. the studio is an entirely different thing. The main goal for live sound is to make whatever needs to be heard heard, the relative quality of that sound source is almost secondary at times. Putting any mic 3 feet from a trumpet in a live setting just ain't gonna work. You'll get more stage wash then horn.