Login / Register
 
video audition pt 2 - sample attached
New Reply
Subscribe
jnorman
Thread Starter
#1
26th February 2013
Old 26th February 2013
  #1
Lives for gear
 
Joined: Sep 2004
Location: Salem, Oregon
Posts: 2,147

Thread Starter
jnorman is offline
video audition pt 2 - sample attached

hi guys - thanks for your assistance in helping me prepare for the college audition video session i just did for a young singer. i wound up using a single ORTF pair of km184s just out of the video frame. i dont really like using a single pair for piano duos in the studio, since i can acheive a much nicer sound with a vocal mic and a stereo pair on the piano, and also have much more flexibility during post with multi mic setup.

but when doing a video like this, my usual setup just doesnt work well, so i did what i had to do.

i am attaching one of the videos for your comments, feedback, and suggestions for simialr future sessions (i may be doing a submittal to "From the Top" this spring).

__________________
jnorman
sunridge studios
salem, oregon
#2
27th February 2013
Old 27th February 2013
  #2
Lives for gear
 
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 758

polytope is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by jnorman View Post
but when doing a video like this, my usual setup just doesnt work well, so i did what i had to do.
What's your usual setup?

I think it was good though the piano sounded a bit stuffy. Maybe because of the small room?
jnorman
Thread Starter
#3
27th February 2013
Old 27th February 2013
  #3
Lives for gear
 
Joined: Sep 2004
Location: Salem, Oregon
Posts: 2,147

Thread Starter
jnorman is offline
poly - in the studio, i usually set up the soloist facing the piano, and use a c414b-uls as a spot on the soloist, plus a stereo pair of omnis on the piano. i start with the omni pair and gradually bring up the soloist mic in the mix until i get the correct balance between the two. i have nice flexibility to control balance, and i can eq the spots or piano mics as needed. i just couldnt figure out how to make the video work with that setup.
#4
27th February 2013
Old 27th February 2013
  #4
Lives for gear
 
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 758

polytope is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by jnorman View Post
poly - in the studio, i usually set up the soloist facing the piano, and use a c414b-uls as a spot on the soloist, plus a stereo pair of omnis on the piano. i start with the omni pair and gradually bring up the soloist mic in the mix until i get the correct balance between the two. i have nice flexibility to control balance, and i can eq the spots or piano mics as needed. i just couldnt figure out how to make the video work with that setup.
Do you put the omnis at the tail?

I think Zoe is a good singer. Hope she gets to the next level.
#5
27th February 2013
Old 27th February 2013
  #5
Lives for gear
 
Joined: Jul 2010
Location: Mountain US
Posts: 3,000

Masaaki is offline
Hello,
I thought it sounds/looks good for the audition purpose, but slightly, just slightly I had a sense the mic position and camera position are far apart. I've done this type of duo recording in a small hall with video and separate audio, and it worked best when I had ORTF stereo pair, just a few inches above my video camera. My camera has omni mics on top of the body (Sony NEX VG20), and I aligned my ORTF pair (Beyer MC930) and the camera's mic looking from the side. That way, it gave me the most natural video-audio sync, with better sound quality (and also easy to line up the waves of audio from the mic and audio from video in the video editor-Vegas). So my question is, are those mics were slightly far away from the video camera?
#6
27th February 2013
Old 27th February 2013
  #6
Gear nut
 
Joined: May 2006
Location: The point of no return
Posts: 103

locosoundman is offline
Overall, very nice.

I feel like the piano was a touch overpowering - not a volume thing, but maybe a half-stick might have been better for vocal presence.

What kind of camera did you use?
__________________
"Now you listen to me - are you gonna dither down quietly or am I gonna have to truncate you?" - scene from "A Bronx mastering Tale"
#7
27th February 2013
Old 27th February 2013
  #7
Gear Guru
 
Joined: Jun 2002
Location: New York
Posts: 15,814

joeq is online now
Quote:
in the studio, i usually set up the soloist facing the piano, and use a c414b-uls as a spot on the soloist, plus a stereo pair of omnis on the piano
I think it is very nice, but I still just don't get the aversion to allowing microphones in the shot for a college audition. Surely there is a way to position the camera so the mic is not blocking the singer's face.

I have done a number of these and I set up my mics like I always do and just videotape the Recording Session. The mics, stands and wires are visible in the shot.

A lot of these students were accepted at some very prestigious schools, so I don't think the admissions people "mind" seeing a mic.

In my opinion, the move toward requesting a video audition over an audio recording is to simplify the process, to eliminate the obsessive editing and so on. If we then take the video audition as a challenge to produce a "TV show" with all kinds of constraints on the picture, such as hiding the mics etc. it is just defeating the purpose, IMO.
__________________
.

“What you ask about is music. What you like is sound. Now music and sound are akin, but they are not the same.”
— Confucius
#8
27th February 2013
Old 27th February 2013
  #8
Lives for gear
 
Joined: Jul 2010
Location: Mountain US
Posts: 3,000

Masaaki is offline
I agree. The reviewer I know actually prefers seeing the whole performer/instrument in the frame, even cables, mics, etc are in the frame.
#9
27th February 2013
Old 27th February 2013
  #9
Lives for gear
 
king2070lplaya's Avatar
 
Joined: Apr 2009
Location: Illinois
Posts: 1,394

king2070lplaya is offline
I just try to make it look like a recital performance. Keeping the mics out makes it look more elegant, and removes any initial doubts about overproduction. I never close mic the singers for these sorts of things.
__________________
Kevin Bourassa
Recording Engineer, Trumpeter
trumpetbourassa@gmail.com


Quote:
Originally Posted by Plush View Post
Eventually you should deploy the most expensive and best Mic you can get. It should be hideously expensive.
#10
27th February 2013
Old 27th February 2013
  #10
Lives for gear
 
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 2,010

2manyrocks is offline
I enjoyed her performance. I wanted to hear more, and that's the result she wants.

It is so hard to fight off the temptation to close mic.

This is so much better than the home audition videos I'm sure the university is used to receiving.
#11
27th February 2013
Old 27th February 2013
  #11
Gear Guru
 
Joined: Jun 2002
Location: New York
Posts: 15,814

joeq is online now
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2manyrocks View Post
It is so hard to fight off the temptation to close mic.
Quote:
Originally Posted by king2070lplaya View Post
I just try to make it look like a recital performance. Keeping the mics out makes it look more elegant, and removes any initial doubts about overproduction. I never close mic the singers for these sorts of things.
Well, if you never spot mic a singer in a purely audio production, then certainly I am not suggesting you start doing so just for a video! But the reverse should also hold true.

For this type of music, I almost always separately mic singer and piano in the studio. I just don't see why I should change because there is a camera there. Not for an audition.

To me real "overproduction" would be making a change in the way I 'normally' do things. As for looking elegant, then we start to get into being video producers. How about Lights? Gown?

Candles?
jnorman
Thread Starter
#12
27th February 2013
Old 27th February 2013
  #12
Lives for gear
 
Joined: Sep 2004
Location: Salem, Oregon
Posts: 2,147

Thread Starter
jnorman is offline
yes, i did try to make the video look good at the cost of the audio portion. i just could not find a video setup to accommodate my normal recording setup for this kind of audio (singer facing the piano) - too much clutter in the frame, etc. i dont think i would have mided too much if it showed mics, etc, but all of my wife's flute studio periphernalia, stacks of sheet music, her workstation, walls covered with pictures of flute students, etc, were just too clutttery for a decent video framing.

masaaki - the mics were about the same distance as the camera (right beside the camera), to try and sync the sound with what you are seeing - maybe i didnt do good enough with that?

loco - i used a panasonic Zs10 P&S cam on 720p. post was done in adobe premiere. as far as stick goes, i always put it on long stick - closed or even half stick just seems to muffle the piano sound rather than making it quieter.
#13
27th February 2013
Old 27th February 2013
  #13
Lives for gear
 
Joined: Jul 2010
Location: Mountain US
Posts: 3,000

Masaaki is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by jnorman View Post
masaaki - the mics were about the same distance as the camera (right beside the camera), to try and sync the sound with what you are seeing - maybe i didnt do good enough with that?
I'm not sure why I feel that way, maybe because I'm using headphone through PC's onboard sound card? I will try later with my nearfiled....see what I find.

Anyway, I don't know how you sync the audio, but I usually use Vegas, and import video, camera's audio, and the HQ audio into another audio track. First, I use waveforms of audio to align them roughly, but then play the camera's audio and mic's audio at the same time. I do this by loop playing several places where 'p' 'm' 'b' sounds are obvious if it is a singing, and look at the video preview at the same time. If audio of mic and camera are sync'ed, phase effects disappear. Since I'm the only one feeling this, so don't worry...probably my ears and eyes are not sync'ed
jnorman
Thread Starter
#14
28th February 2013
Old 28th February 2013
  #14
Lives for gear
 
Joined: Sep 2004
Location: Salem, Oregon
Posts: 2,147

Thread Starter
jnorman is offline
mas - I do similar in adobe premiere, but I usually mute the camera's audio after I have sync'ed with the separate audio.

I know the problem you are taking about though - I recorded jill felber (excellent classical player) in a very nice hall once, where I had the video cam way up back in a long, but relatively tight shot, and ORTF pair at stage lip. what you were seeing just did not jive with what you were hearing - it was sad I had to learn that lesson when working with such a professional player...

I am going to record jim walker (jazz flutist, also played on all the star wars soundtracks, studio musician in LA, and teaches at USC) at old church in Portland this spring, and hopefully I will be well prepared...
#15
28th February 2013
Old 28th February 2013
  #15
Lives for gear
 
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 2,010

2manyrocks is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeq View Post

To me real "overproduction" would be making a change in the way I 'normally' do things. As for looking elegant, then we start to get into being video producers. How about Lights? Gown?

Candles?
Black evening gowns in front of a gloss black grand, for sure.
Quote
1
#16
28th February 2013
Old 28th February 2013
  #16
Lives for gear
 
king2070lplaya's Avatar
 
Joined: Apr 2009
Location: Illinois
Posts: 1,394

king2070lplaya is offline
Think of it like this: if they are classical or operatic voice, they will almost NEVER perform with a mic. So how they sound unamplified in a hall is what the listener and adjudicator are looking for. Adding a close mic adds doubt in the untrained-in-recording listeners ear; are they not loud enough to project? Why is that there? Even if these concerns are unwarranted, they still pop into the mind... Also, if they are listening to the close mic'd voice, they are not hearing the fully blossomed sound, which you only get when you move further from the vocalist, which is what a voice teacher auditioning tapes is listening for.

Add to this that many classical teachers and professionals tend to be VERY opinionated about how things should be. And many opera singers/teachers hate the idea of a mic and will see this as off-putting. I figure best to avoid this.

FWIW I do several dozen operatic tapes like this a year at a top 5 opera school in this nation, aka the USA. I've recorded for students of Nathan and Julie Gunn, Yvonne Redman, Et al, and I form these opinions of mine based on conversations with them. FWIW.
Quote
1
#17
28th February 2013
Old 28th February 2013
  #17
Lives for gear
 
Roland's Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2002
Location: St Leonards on Sea, England
Posts: 2,604

Roland is offline
Audio level sounds a touch too low, I had to turn it up quite a bit. Because the piano intro is long I would cut out the voice announcement to get on with it a bit faster.

I think it's ideal for purpose and she certainly is good enough to get in. She lacks a little power, however, that's one of the things that they should be able to help her with.
#18
28th February 2013
Old 28th February 2013
  #18
Gear Guru
 
Joined: Jun 2002
Location: New York
Posts: 15,814

joeq is online now
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roland View Post
Because the piano intro is long I would cut out the voice announcement to get on with it a bit faster..
Some of the teachers and coaches I have worked with feel the self-introduction is extremely important. They will often make the student do it over if it is not strong and confident.

This is especially important with teenage girls whose speech patterns may fall on the Valley Girl side of things!

My name is Jane Smith? I will be singing Lange Bitterlich? By Johan Amadeus Majeski?
#19
28th February 2013
Old 28th February 2013
  #19
Lives for gear
 
Roland's Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2002
Location: St Leonards on Sea, England
Posts: 2,604

Roland is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeq View Post
Some of the teachers and coaches I have worked with feel the self-introduction is extremely important. They will often make the student do it over if it is not strong and confident.

This is especially important with teenage girls whose speech patterns may fall on the Valley Girl side of things!

My name is Jane Smith? I will be singing Lange Bitterlich? By Johan Amadeus Majeski?
This is the problem with teachers who miss the point. Nobody cares is she can talk, it's the singing the college are interested in.

The purpose of the video is simply to get a yes/no as to if they even want to give a formal interview and audition. The girl featured in the above video has issues of power, phrasing and performance, however, she is pretty much in tune so any panel should at least shortlist her.

If she ends up singing in the chorus of an opera company, it's possible that an audience will never hear her speak.
#20
3rd March 2013
Old 3rd March 2013
  #20
Gear Guru
 
Joined: Jun 2002
Location: New York
Posts: 15,814

joeq is online now
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roland View Post
This is the problem with teachers who miss the point. Nobody cares is she can talk, it's the singing the college are interested in.
It is you who are missing the point. It's not about their ability to "talk".

The presentation the person makes as a person matters in any situation where competition is stiff and the candidate may be on the bubble

Starting off an audition with a confident projection has a positive effect on the reviewer AND on the student herself. These teachers know exactly what they are doing.
#21
3rd March 2013
Old 3rd March 2013
  #21
Lives for gear
 
Roland's Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2002
Location: St Leonards on Sea, England
Posts: 2,604

Roland is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeq View Post
It is you who are missing the point. It's not about their ability to "talk".

The presentation the person makes as a person matters in any situation where competition is stiff and the candidate may be on the bubble

Starting off an audition with a confident projection has a positive effect on the reviewer AND on the student herself. These teachers know exactly what they are doing.
That's what they think, and that is why they are wrong.

At this stage of the game it's about whether they want to spend time giving them an audition, they would have to be quite rough to fail getting to the audition stage and anyone borderline at "video stage" would almost certainly not make it through.

Look at it from the college perspective. Tapes arrive. They watch them, with three possible scenario's, they sound great, definite invitation, they sound borderline or average, definite invitation, they sound off the required standard, further review or no invitation.

Now as silly as it sounds, the intro is great for about 5 video's, after this, you as a viewer get to the stage, "yeah, yeah, yeah, get on with it!" There is nothing they are going to say in the introduction that is going to sway someone that knows what they are doing. Of course if they dont know what they are doing you need to question whether there is any value in that school for music education.

All this aside, it still needs to be remembered that for all those that attend music school, sadly, only a small percentage will make it in the profession and the only time they will get asked about their musical education will be out of curiosity.
#22
3rd March 2013
Old 3rd March 2013
  #22
Lives for gear
 
Thomas W. Bethe's Avatar
 
Joined: Jan 2005
Location: Oberlin, Ohio
Posts: 5,121

Thomas W. Bethe is offline
I thought the balance was a bit piano heavy. If this is a vocal audition shouldn't the voice be tad louder than the piano? Overall nice job. The overall level was down but I assume you did it this way in case the singer got over zealous and belted out some high loud notes.

Most auditioning professors are going for the sound more than the visuals.
__________________
-TOM-

Thomas W. Bethel
Managing Director
Acoustik Musik, Ltd.
Oberlin, OH 44074
www.acoustikmusik.com

Doing what you love is freedom.
Loving what you do is happiness.

Celebrating 20 years in the mastering business in 2014
#23
3rd March 2013
Old 3rd March 2013
  #23
Lives for gear
 
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 2,010

2manyrocks is offline
The students at my daughter's school are in regional competition all this week, and every one of them has to introduce himself or herself to the panel of judges.

I would think that that expectation is that the student introduce himself or herself on the video.

We had a guest pastor from Africa speak in Middle Tennessee, USA about two years ago. He spent 5 minutes giving a greeting on behalf of himself, his family and his congregation in Africa. Western civilization may have downplayed the importance of a greeting, but in some areas of the world, it's still very much a big deal.
#24
3rd March 2013
Old 3rd March 2013
  #24
Lives for gear
 
Roland's Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2002
Location: St Leonards on Sea, England
Posts: 2,604

Roland is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2manyrocks View Post
The students at my daughter's school are in regional competition all this week, and every one of them has to introduce himself or herself to the panel of judges.

I would think that that expectation is that the student introduce himself or herself on the video.

We had a guest pastor from Africa speak in Middle Tennessee, USA about two years ago. He spent 5 minutes giving a greeting on behalf of himself, his family and his congregation in Africa. Western civilization may have downplayed the importance of a greeting, but in some areas of the world, it's still very much a big deal.
I'm sorry, this is not about etiquette, culture or anything else.

Simple, I'm a lecture that every year has to listen to 300-400 audition submission video's to see if they actually get invited for a full audition in front of the panel.

It's a necessary process as having a panel of senior members of the faculty taking possibly several days out of their schedule to listen to potential students costs us in terms of time and money.

The video posted earlier here, has introduction by the singer and then the piano for over 20 seconds before she sings. If it is terribly out of tune warbeling that obviously isn't good it's a waste of resources. I would respectfully suggest that 20 seconds of actual performance is usually more than enough to make a valid judgement on someone's potential ability.

Having worked in this business for getting towards 35 years, I can honestly say that I've met people who can barely string a sentence together, who are none the less wonderful musicians, equally I know extremely confident, erudite individuals that couldn't hold a tune if their life depended on it.

Typically I've seen many occasions where music teachers have convinced themselves that the panel hates red or patterned ties, brown shoes, long hair, etc, etc.

Having a visiting Pastor introduce himself may have well been very entertaining and informing and entirely appropriate, having 300 people come in one after the other and say the same thing would be less so. They will have this opportunitiy when (and if) the time comes for the real audition.


To Thomas, I agree that the piano balance might well be a little loud, however, this demonstrates that perhaps she lacks a little power and projection, artificially balancing it would be of little real worth, after all this tape is for pre audition purposes.
#25
3rd March 2013
Old 3rd March 2013
  #25
Lives for gear
 
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 2,010

2manyrocks is offline
Based on your experience, would you suggest that the video have a short title with the name of the person and the composition or leave that out, too?--that is, would you recommend cutting straight into the composition?
jnorman
Thread Starter
#26
3rd March 2013
Old 3rd March 2013
  #26
Lives for gear
 
Joined: Sep 2004
Location: Salem, Oregon
Posts: 2,147

Thread Starter
jnorman is offline
generally, the college will specify that they want the piece(s) introduced or not in their audition submittal requirements.
New Reply Submit Thread to Facebook Facebook  Submit Thread to Twitter Twitter  Submit Thread to LinkedIn LinkedIn  Submit Thread to Google+ Google+ 
 
Topic:
Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Similar Threads
Thread
Thread Starter / Forum
Replies
TonyBelmont / Rap + Hip Hop engineering & production
88
mrsteaks / Mastering forum
26
mikeon / Music Computers
6
Redsandblu / So much gear, so little time!
3
tojotamies / Remote Possibilities in Acoustic Music & Location Recording
9

Forum Jump

SEO by vBSEO ©2011, Crawlability, Inc.