Room mics

[Gerax]

Hello

I'd like to get a few ideas and input on the way you choose and place room mics to get the audience in live shows recording. This question has come out because in my last remote recording date of a live gig (24 trk rock band) I got some funky sounding room tracks; the venue was horrible sounding to start with, as it was an amphitheater, with the stage down and stairs all around, which made the sound bounce back toward my audience mics with a very nasty slapback echo/ring (which was furthermore augmented by the scattering effect of the steps in the stairs... ).
Where do you put them? Do you exclusively go with shotguns or use other kinds of mics too? How many do you use, and do you use stereo techniques or you simply spread them around and pand them afterwards to suit the mix?

Thanx

L.G.

[Remoteness]

I take a much different view on room mics than others do on this board so I hope others will also reply.

The style of music matters when it come to audience mics. For rock I start with shotguns pointing towards the audience which are usually setup at the DSR, DSC and DSL. The three to six downstage mics are then blended with the FOH pair(s). I typically use LD condensers for the FOH position.

You must fax out the room mics during sound check or during the openning act's performance. This is the only way you can do something if you're not happy with the tones you're getting.

You'll find that you get a lot more audience verses room tone when you use shotguns on stage (or of the speaker stacks) pointing towards the room. I focus each shotgun towards a section of the room.

In situations like yours I have had an assistant walk around the room or space with a mic to find the best possible mic position in the audience. The stage shotgun mics usually work well. Once I find the right positions for the rear pairs I blend them in with the shotguns to taste.

I always make sure my pans, levels and such are addressed when I'm tracking. I do not want to "fix it in the mix" especially when it comes to audience mics.

[Gerax]

Thanx Remote, always good infos from you, it's like reading a manual on location recording .
I'm mixing the recorded tracks in Pro Tools right now, and though the audience tracks sound a bit "tiny" (due to the outdoor venue I belive) I managed to get an "OK" ambience by time aligning them to the band tracks, so I got rid of that nasty slapback/ring; for the rest I just made it up with a bit of reverb.
I'm considering getting a pair more shotguns, what would you go with? I used to use Sennheiser MKH416 for this task, but lately I've seen several short shotgun models by other brands (Audio Technica, Rode, Azden), are they worth considering, after all they're for room tracks, or I should stick to what I know?
Also, do you flip the phase on the FOH mics to have them aligned to those coming from the stage?

Thanx

L.G.

[Jim vanBergen]

Steve's post is a textbook for my starting point. I also add lip mics (lip of stage) usually a pair or more of cardioid dynamics for crowd reaction between songs, and I augment THOSE with at least a widely spaced pair of dynamic cardioids past the middle-point of the room. These are NEVER used in the context of a song unless they are time aligned for audience reaction to match the stage mics.

Shure VP76's are my preferred cheap dynamic omni for mid or rear room mics. These are GREAT for loud rock, metal or hip hop shows and when someone throws a beer, if it rains, etc I just smile and know they are easily replaced.

I love having different parts of the crowd miked for live and post-mixed TV shows. You end up with a lot of flavors and can add the illusion of different reactions or an immense crowd when they are in sync.

[ohoen]

I'm trying to learn how to do room mics properly as well. Steve, with the shotguns, how tight a pattern do you use? I know it will depend on the space, but... "if you could only have one pair of" shotguns what would they be?

The venue I'm recording at on Friday has some sidefills that we'll be placing the shotguns on. Even if I am using a high pass filter do I need to worry about the sheer intensity of the vibration effecting the mics' response above, say, 100hz?

What do you all use for stands for the FOH pair to keep them out of harm's, and the FOH engineer's, way? Are you running lines from FOH or are you using the house snake?
Heap big thanks all, this forum has been a great resource to me as my partner and I build our remote company.
Oliver

[edwinhurwitz]

I do mostly smaller clubs. For rock and electric jazz I have been experimenting with figure 8s on the left and right edge of the stage. This allows me to get a cool stage ambience mixed with some room tone and audience reaction. I have experimented with other ways of going about it, but I like this the best so far for most of the rooms that aren't that great sounding.

I also have been recording a singer/songwriter series in the Community House at Chautauqua in Boulder. It's a great sounding room and I have been doing an m/s pair of 414 XLSs about 10 feet in front of the performers. It gets a fantastic room tone.


HTH!
Edwin

[Gilliland]

I almost always keep my room mics at the stage, not out in the room. I use shotguns only when absolutely necessary, typically outdoors where I want to avoid sounds that don't originate in the venue (like passing cars and motorcycles). If I can afford four channels for room mics, I will dedicate one pair to the audience and one to the ambience.

The audience mics might be shotguns, but more likely it will be a stereo XY pair placed as low as possible at the front center of the stage. If that won't work, I may place a pair of half-cardioid boundary mics on foam pads right at the lip of the stage on the left and right. Of course, either of these configurations depends on a somewhat "polite" crowd.

The ambiance mics are more likely to be cardioid or figure-8 mics at the extreme left and right of the stage facing diagonally across the room. This lets me avoid the direct sound from the columns as much as possible - especially if I use figure-8s, since I can just "aim" their null side toward the columns. I tend to put these mics up much higher than the audience mics, probably 8 to 10 feet above the stage.

Lately, I've been using my SP B3s for the ambiance mics - they are excellent for this application. For the audience mics, I sometimes use AKG C535s or AT 849s. I've also used an AT825 stereo mic successfully, but I no longer own that one.

This kind of configuration has worked for me on everything from quiet acoustic concerts through loud country or rock shows.

[Remoteness]

Oliver,

Trial and error is the best way to learn how to setup room mics properly. You just have to do it yourself.

Well, the MKH416 is basically a super cardioid pressure gradient microphone system with a set polar pattern. It’s hypercardioid at the low and medium frequencies and lobar above 2kHz. We call them shotguns, but they are really spot (or short gun) mics.

If I could only have one pair of shotgun mics, they would be the most expensive ones.
But, seriously speaking I like my MKH416s. A lot of folks don’t like them much but they work well for me. Neumann, Schoeps and others make some serious shotguns.

Positioning of the mics is everything – If applicable, a high pass filter can be used to take care of the offensive low frequencies.

I would not use Shotguns for the FOH pair. I like LDCs for that task. We use Claws, Rowi’s or any other type of clamp for the FOH pair. We also have used your standard mic stand too. Anything is possible. You just have to bring a few options and make up you mind at the site survey or on the day of the gig.

[ohoen]

Thanks so much guys. I'm at the show now, we'll see how we do when we get everything back to the studio!
Oliver