recording live performance with DPA headset

[John Willett]

Omni is definitely the best - don't use a directional headmic!

The omni will be more natural and less prone to dropouts.

With a directional headmic. the boom can move relative to the mouth as you move your head. This causes variation in level and also the proximity effect will vary - definitely not good for recording.

[huub]

You'll have to experiment a bit to get the mic in a position where there is no/little popping and or breath noise.
Some heads are just not compatible with headset mics, sometimes it's impossible to not get breath and/or popping.
I'd go for the 406x series, although the Dfine might work for you as well.
I suspect getting a 4060 and putting it on your forehead, at the edge of your hairline will work best, both visually and sonically.

[fafalio]

4060 is high sens...i think with a classical singer they could go in distorsion.
About D:FINE it is the last model of DPA about headset. But if i see the diagram of D:FINE vs 4065, 4065 is surely more flat in all the freq. range.
Perhaps D:FINE is more ergonomic and lighter, but spec of 4065/4066 seem better.

[Rolo 46]

Originally Posted by huub

You'll have to experiment a bit to get the mic in a position where there is no/little popping and or breath noise.
Some heads are just not compatible with headset mics, sometimes it's impossible to not get breath and/or popping.
I'd go for the 406x series, although the Dfine might work for you as well.
I suspect getting a 4060 and putting it on your forehead, at the edge of your hairline will work best, both visually and sonically.

Absolutely true
A hairline mount will render your vocals and the orchestra in much better balance too

[boojum]

Originally Posted by Rolo 46

Absolutely true
A hairline mount will render your vocals and the orchestra in much better balance too

And if you are still concerned about overloading the 4060 switch to a 4061.

[huub]

Originally Posted by fafalio

4060 is high sens...i think with a classical singer they could go in distorsion.
About D:FINE it is the last model of DPA about headset. But if i see the diagram of D:FINE vs 4065, 4065 is surely more flat in all the freq. range.
Perhaps D:FINE is more ergonomic and lighter, but spec of 4065/4066 seem better.

We've experimented with all types of headset mics, conclusion was: there is no clear winner, none of them is ideal.
We went for countryman E6 in the end, mostly because they look best in picture.
The mounting system (is that the right word?) of the D.fine was generally not loved by most engineers.

We have both countrymans E6's and DPA 406x and use them both.
I think Sennheiser has a new one that's supposed to be good.

The diagram is kind of misleading, because of where you put the mic, the response is very far from flat, and moving the mic a couple of cm's can change the response drastically...

[fafalio]

I can't understand the sonic improvment of a hairline Vs headset considering headset are equalized to operate around 3cm by the mouth.

[huub]

Originally Posted by fafalio

I can't understand the sonic improvment of a hairline Vs headset considering headset are equalized to operate around 3cm by the mouth.

Just try and listen

[fafalio]

Ok. I Will try.but i don t understand the theoric motivation.

[huub]

Originally Posted by fafalio

Ok. I Will try.but i don t understand the theoric motivation.

It has to do with how sound comes out of a mouth and the shape of the head I suppose.
But in this case listening and drawing a conclusion is faster and way more efficient than trying to think of the theory behind it

[huub]

And also: the mics are not pre equalised to compensate for the placement.
They might advertise this but this is impossible since a subtle difference in placement changes the sound and every head is differently shaped and thus causes a different freq response.
If you place the microphone too close to the mouth, the sound changes in a way that can not be compensated for by EQ.

on the forehead sounds fine, on glasses sounds fine, headset sounds like a headset.

[fafalio]

Ok thanks a lot!

[njrsound]

Hairline placement will absolutely sound better than any headset just due to sound propagation around the head - if you are any sort of trained singer, singing in an Operatic style, you WILL need the lower-sensitivity 4061 rather than the 4060. Keep the mic within the centre third of the forehead for best results. Your result will also be very dependant on how you get the signal from the mic to the recorder. Are you intending to use a Radio (Wireless) mic system? If so they do vary widely in quality - even within brands. Also be very careful that the mic input level to the transmitter is set up correctly - not too low, but not in danger of overloading the input. Check your chosen transmitter can provide 5v powering to the mic, otherwise you may need the DPA 4063 instead - it is a 4061 that operates on 3v instead of 5v.

[fafalio]

all is clear.
A) About wireless system is the next point i would like to ask. i don't know nothing about wireless system.
Is there a way to connect my millennia HV pre to the mic via a wireless system?
B) how could connect the mic to a sony M10 and use its pre and conversion? it has a mini jackmic input and it has not 48v phanton.
Alessandro.

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by huub

You'll have to experiment a bit to get the mic in a position where there is no/little popping and or breath noise.
Some heads are just not compatible with headset mics, sometimes it's impossible to not get breath and/or popping.
I'd go for the 406x series, although the Dfine might work for you as well.
I suspect getting a 4060 and putting it on your forehead, at the edge of your hairline will work best, both visually and sonically.

This is easy - just make sure the omni capsule is to the side of the mouth and not in the direct air stream.

[fifthcircle]

Forgive me here, but why on earth are you wanting to record a classical singer from within inches of the mouth. What kind of recording are you expecting to get? Personally, I can't imagine a sound I would rather *not* have than this.

I use headsets for live sound all the time and for my money, with classical music, nothing comes close to DPA. Those are the only ones I'll spec. And i've never chosen a wig mount/hairline mount over a headset. The cardiod headsets are very difficult to get into position and even then, the off-axis response tends to bug me. Give me a 4066 (omni) any day.

You're then asking about recording through millennia pres and such.... Sounds like you need a more traditional approach.

What am I missing?

--Ben

[fafalio]

Originally Posted by fifthcircle

Forgive me here, but why on earth are you wanting to record a classical singer from within inches of the mouth. What kind of recording are you expecting to get? Personally, I can't imagine a sound I would rather *not* have than this.

I use headsets for live sound all the time and for my money, with classical music, nothing comes close to DPA. Those are the only ones I'll spec. And i've never chosen a wig mount/hairline mount over a headset. The cardiod headsets are very difficult to get into position and even then, the off-axis response tends to bug me. Give me a 4066 (omni) any day.

You're then asking about recording through millennia pres and such.... Sounds like you need a more traditional approach.

What am I missing?

--Ben

For me the true madness is to listen an opera with PA because nowdays singers have not tecnique.
About recording, i'm involved in a project where there are opera singers and electronics music. I would record my self as a "semi-capella" for other studies i want to make.
About millennia, i would use this because it is very good, but i don't know how to connect with the mic via wireless.

[fifthcircle]

Don't be too quick to assume under what situations singers have been amplified.

There are many situations that I work in that require it- the most often being outdoor performances. I don't care how good the voice is, when you've got a thousand or more people in an outdoor venue, you amplify. Period. It just doesn't work otherwise. I've also had to deal with a lot of modern works where the voice is processed, it may not necessarily balance with the group, etc... Those mixes tend to be very difficult as there are often multiple aesthetics in which I have to work from a feeling of acoustic through loud amplification. To make it all work in one situation is not as easy as it may seem.

As for the original questions at hand- this makes a lot more sense to me now.

If you are just recording tracks to be used prior, then I would still use conventional microphones. If you are looking for getting a clean sound in a live performance, the situation would dictate which mic I'd use. I'd still probably stick with DPA omni headsets. I just like the way they sound for classical work. Countryman doesn't stay in place as well and there is a nasal quality they have that I find very difficult to get rid of.

For wireless, get the best system you can afford. There are plenty out there, but they all tend to be very expensive (at least the good ones are). Sonically, the Audio Technica artist quality and the Sennheiser 3000/5000 series are top quality. Shure UR/ULX is a big step down. I've heard good things about the new Shure digital and Shure Axient, but I have not personally used them yet.

With any wireless mic, you'll take the output of your receiver and plug it into a preamp as you would any other pre. You will have the coloration of the wireless system, though, so don't expect the DPA to sound like it would if connected directly into your Millennia.

I'd be careful with wireless, though, unless you're using the rig for live performance where you are moving around. I don't think the sound is anywhere near as good on wireless as wired.

--Ben

[fafalio]

Thanks a lot Ben, very clear. Alessandro.

[huub]

Originally Posted by John Willett

This is easy - just make sure the omni capsule is to the side of the mouth and not in the direct air stream.

Oh, is it that easy, really?
I wish it was, because then headset mics would sound great all the time, but they don't.
Some peoples heads have weird airflows and normal logic doesn't always apply to getting a good sounding mic position. In fact on some peoples heads you get breath noise no matter where you put the mic.