Thinking about a VERY small recording mobile

[pkautzsch]

Yes, I have read lots of truck building threads.
My situation: Doing rack-based remote recordings mostly of classical music, often in churches. Carrying everything in, setting up a control "room" somewhere behind the stage, mixing later at my mix room. This mix room, which I don't even have to pay rent for, will probably have to be left in somewhat like a year.
Therefore, I either need to rent a room and continue carrying everything around, or I need a truck in which I can go directly to 2-Track and have a multitrack as backup.

Problem, as always, is the budget which will only allow for some used smallish European (Dutch? ) camping van or Ford Transit.
It won't need a large desk or lots of rack space, since most stuff will happen ITB. Maybe a Tascam 3200 desk, but probably just computer and some ADs or even just ADAT interfaces, and of course a HD24 or D2424. Plus storage space for 4u of 8ch preamps and mic stands, cabling...
And it won't need to be perfectly quiet inside. For background noise estimation I can use headphones which I'm used to from sitting near the stage. Will be a great step ahead to always have monitor speakers in a well-known environment!

Does anybody have experiences with really small mobiles? Or is it something I rather should forget quickly and start planning another mix room? Thanks a lot :-)

[chadly]

While I don't have any experiance with small mobiles (other then having thought long and hard about it a bunch) I'd say these two things will matter a great deal:

1) Truck to Stage Cabling (Think through this: churches, etc. often don't have dedicated raceways/runs for cabling. Will you go through doors? Windows? How many channels? Is it easier to be inside the building next to the stage?)

2) Power (Extension cords? Generator? Beefed up alternator? Another it-might-be-easier-inside sort of thing)

I think the size will be fine for tracking like you're doing. . . I don't know if I'd trust mixing in a smaller space. I'm sure the other fine folks on here will address those issues!

Best of luck!

[Jim vanBergen]

The Lincoln Center Video Library that tapes Broadway shows has a VAN that houses the VTRs and a tiny little Sony console. This was the smallest I had seen until I saw a picture of a 24-track minivan studio. But, having seen them both, I'd say you can fit it in whatever you want to as long as you consider:

-soundproofing from outdoors
-isolating the room from the frame
-HVAC
-an absorbtive & non-reflective surface.

I have never been surprised at the amount brilliant ideas that have WORKED!

Best of luck,

Jim

[Indrestudios]

I can't say enough good things about the Sprinter vans. (made by Mercedes overseas & imported by Dodge in the States)They make a number of different heights & lengths to suit your needs. I built up one about a year ago, and it's been great for me. Our Aviom CAT5 digital snake has been a life saver - 56 audio channels + a video line down one small wire.

-Mike Comstock
Indre Mobile, Philadelphia
http://www.indrestudios.com

[Biber]

hello peter,

well i also did some research on small vans because that is also an idea for my future business plans

here´s what i found

one from england

http://www.asthecrowflies.biz/

and one from germany
http://www.ths-studio.de/aktuelles.php#livevan

and holger is a very nice guy by the way

[Harley-OIART]

Off topic but somewhat applicable :

Is it not true that you can get digital snakes these days that transmit via CAT-5?
Meaning you could thus put a preamp rack inside the venue near the stage, hit the convertors, encode to ethernet, and then transmit up to a 1000 feet if need be (more with repeaters) out to the truck?

Seems like a logical idea to me... don't know how possible it is to implement but definetly it would be something to check out.

P.S. "IndreStudios" - Great Truck! My best Regards.

-Scott

[Biber]

scott

http://audiorail.home.comcast.net/

is that something on your mind??

[Harley-OIART]

Originally Posted by Biber

http://audiorail.home.comcast.net/

Thank you very much 'Biber'

Best Wishes.

-Scott

[Bixby]

Originally Posted by Harley-OIART

Is it not true that you can get digital snakes these days that transmit via CAT-5?-Scott

Not ethernet, but fiber and/or coax... we just picked up RME's MADI system and have used it on a couple gigs. Works great. Very flexible.

[Rogervandeberg]

Originally Posted by Indrestudios

I can't say enough good things about the Sprinter vans. (made by Mercedes overseas & imported by Dodge in the States)They make a number of different heights & lengths to suit your needs. I built up one about a year ago, and it's been great for me. Our Aviom CAT5 digital snake has been a life saver - 56 audio channels + a video line down one small wire.

-Mike Comstock
Indre Mobile, Philadelphia
http://www.indrestudios.com

That does look really neat! Cosy!

[Harley-OIART]

Originally Posted by Bixby

Not ethernet, but fiber and/or coax... we just picked up RME's MADI system and have used it on a couple gigs. Works great. Very flexible.

Thanks for the Heads up on RME's MADI.

Regarding CAT-5 : (As Originally Posted by Biber) http://audiorail.home.comcast.net/

-Scott

[0VU]

In the UK, there are several small, Transit van sized mobiles, a few smaller ones and many larger but not "full sized" vans.

The BBC have a C-Type/C+ Type which are based respectively upon Merc 608/708 and Transit sized panel vans. Recently, they upgraded the London based C+ with a Sony DMX R100 with outboard pres, converter and MADI link to stage

There are also some independents running Transit sized vehicles capable of 24 or more track recording, As the Crow Flies is a neat little van that I've used several times; Total Audio Solutions' TARDIS is another very good van which is most suited to sound for picture work; The Doyen Mobile, formerly owned by Doyen Records is in a Luton box van, slightly larger than a panel van, but still compact; The Leapfrog Mobile, built in a short wheelbase DAF box van (iirr 4mx2m) used to be based not far from me but I've not seen it for a while.

There are (or were) several independent facilities on mainland Europe using this size of vehicle, not to mention all the Transit/LT/Sprinter sized vans owned by state broadcasters including DRS, ORF, WDR and Romanian and other Eastern European broadcasters, some of which are capable of 48 track record and 60 or more inputs. Radio Latvia have a Sprinter fitted with a 24 channel Audient desk but also carrying 24 channels of outbard mic pre to enable them to handle 48 mic inputs. The Romanian national broadcaster has a couple of Sprinters fitted with custom built Studer D950s. In 1995, DRS in Switzerland had an old shape LT28 fitted with a Studer 962 analogue desk. In Germany, I've used several smaller vans belonging to WDR/BRF some of which are extremely sophisticated with high input counts and digital consoles. Switzerland has a few very nice small mobiles including a brand new one, The Hardmobile, fitted with a Studer Vista 5. Radio Suisse Romande has a Transit sized van fitted with a Sonosax SX-T console.

At the company I used to work for, specialising in classical and jazz recording and broadcast work, I built and operated a few such small (<3500kg) (and one quite large - 14,000kg) mobiles over the last 20 years, one based upon a Transit capable of recording 24 track, another in a VW LT35 capable of 32 track and one as a demountable installation (it took about 30 minutes to fit/remove) capable of 24 track on DTRS that fitted into an unmodified Vauxhall 4x4 or Land Rover 110. Since that company was bought out and merged into another, and I left, I've got various plans for building my own van but, at the moment, it suits me better to use other people's facilites as I can then choose the best van for each particular job and I don't have to worry about the running costs.

With modern digital recorders like the iZ Radar, Alesis HD24XR, Tascam MX2424, etc., and compact digital consoles, it's easier than ever to accommodate high quality multitrack recording in very small vehicles.

The LT35 van I built was the most flexible and useful vehicle we had for radio OB work. Being fairly small, it could fit into venues where access was too tight for larger vehicles, could be parked in a standard parking bay - even on a parking meter - was fast enough for longer motorway journeys not to be too unpleasant, it didn't suffer from access limitations on narrow roads/gateways or most weight limited bridges - though we did have problem once or twice with archways too low for the van to pass under - and it's power consumption was small enough for it comfortably to run out of a single UK domestic single phase mains socket (though normally we ran two feeds - one Technical Power for audio equipment and one Utility Power for HVAC, lighting, etc.). Starting with a panel van, you have a complete, weathertight enclosure to begin, which, as long as it doesn't require substantial modification, is quicker and cheaper to convert than a complete custom coachbuild from scratch. However, if you do need a lot of modification work, it can actually be cheaper to build the whole thing from scratch in the first place or start with an existing coachbuilt box and modify that.

The major negative consideration is weight and working space. Panel vans tend to have more restricted weight capacities (though Mercedes do make panel vans up to 7500kgwith large volumetric capacities) and without fairly expensive coachbuilding modifications, are pretty much fixed in their internal volumes. Everything has to be contained in the body of the van (aircon maybe on the roof) and the loadspaces tend not to be perfectly square which can limit your options a little in terms of how you use the space. A little ingenuity and study of the possibilities can get around most of the problems. A lot of the smaller mobiles either have limited inputs, so need few stands and cables, or high input counts but specialise in jobs where most of these inputs will come from a splitter rack provided by a PA company. If you want built-in air conditioning, a reasonably substantial mains isolation transformer/conditioner/stabiliser/UPS and carry long analogue multicores, mains and video cable, and an analogue desk together with a reasonable stock of mic cables and stands, or a large splitter rackand have reasonable soundproofing, and seating for two or three people to travel in the cab of the van, you have to take care to avoid running into weight problems, particularly with regard to axle weights. Spec'ing a large capacity van like a Merc 811 will get around all but the most severe loads but if you want a smaller, faster, cheaper van it can be more difficult - though perfectly possible. Digital desks with active stageboxes and fibre/Cat.5 cables, can save a lot of weight, especially with things like optical/MADI internal wiring between desk and multitracks, as can careful design of the soundproofing and other wiring systems but you still need to keep a careful eye on weight loading and distribution. I don't know about where you are, but in the UK, the penalties for overloading one or more axles of a vehicle are very severe, including potential immediate impounding of the vehicle at the roadside with no consideration of how the crew and equipment gets back to base/their destination. Once, our LT35 was (unusually) carrying 200m of 32 pair multicore, a rack of remote mic pres, stands and cabling for 32 mics, and an extra DA88 and this put it over it's weight limit on one axle (by the weight of a DA88)!. Unfortunately, this was the one and only time we were ever checked by the police who allowed us to proceed on our way only when we were able to redistribute the load and eliminate the axle overloading but we were still fined £2000!

If you're not in a hurry, used mobile studios of all sizes come up for sale fairly frequently and at prices which make scratch building a new vehicle look like pretty poor value. The larger truck I built cost over £130,000 in coachbuilding, wiring and HVAC systems, plus another £30,000 for the chassis-cab unit. To buy a very similar unit used and in reasonable condition would cost about £10-20,000. Even if you had to put another chassis on that, and do some refurbishment and modification/upgrading, you're still likely to save a substantial amount of money. That said, the LT35 was converted by ourselves at a cost of about £25,000 and three/four weeks work, including coachwork, installation, wiring, and things we didn't already have like 200m of multicores, mains and video cables. We added aircon later which took two days and cost about £2000. (This was in 1993 though.)

I have some pictures of the LT35 I mentioned but they're all prints of transparencies - pre digital camera ;) - I'll dig some out and scan/mail them to you if they'd be of interest. Also, I don't know whether it'd be any use to you but I've got quite a lot of information, pictures, spec lists, and prices on small mobiles around Europe, and particularly in the UK, but much of it is on paper rather than web linkable. Also, various construction costings and drawings. If you think any of this would be useful, drop me a line and I'll see what I can do.

There are many, possibly dozens of other compact recording vans I've not mentioned here. In reality, none of these is that small; the really small ones are those in 4x4s or large estate cars. These are rarer but they do exist. I'll see if I can dig up some pictures.

Some links:

BBC Radio Mobiles: http://www.bbcradioresources.com/ob/index.html
Total Audio Soultions van: http://www.totalaudio.co.uk/tardis.htm
BR Vans: http://www.vts-gmbh.com/Projekte/Deutschlandradio.htm
Audient press release about Latvian van: http://www.audient.co.uk/Audient_New...ITEM&ItemID=26
Doyen Mobile: http://www.doyenmobile.com/
Studer/Hardmobile: http://www.studer.ch/index.aspx?menu...d139&locale=en
Studer/Romanian vans: http://www.studer.ch/pdf/swiss_sound/swisssound46e.pdf
Sonosax RSR van: http://www.sonosax.ch/APPLICATIONS/van.html
BBC Radio Wales new OB van (pictures from British Sound Recording Associaton website):
http://www.soundhunters.com/bsra/agms/agm04/p22.jpeg
http://www.soundhunters.com/bsra/agms/agm04/p23.jpeg
http://www.soundhunters.com/bsra/agms/agm04/p24.jpeg
http://www.soundhunters.com/bsra/agms/agm04/p25.jpeg

[pkautzsch]

Thanks for the great input so far!

I was already thinking of some 1-cable digital solution with a small rack of pres inside the hall. Audient ASP008 w/ AD option is good, 2 racks with 2 U each, one of them with 1 Audient and the converter, the other one with 2 additional pre/ADs. Really lightweight to carry in - my spine HATES carrying those recorders.
Something like this van is what I'm thinking about, used of course, and maybe shorter. They have lots of small doors for connecting water (oops, Audio of course) and AC already fitted, so it would mainly be throwing out all the beds and stuff and making a proper small control room. No body work at all.
Or just an old Transit with some corrosion holes for the cables ;)

[mastermix]

Great thread!

I'd love to have something like the Effanel L7 but these are more inline with reality...

[Indrestudios]

digital snakes...

We really love the Aviom stuff - I'm a bit biased as they are built right down the road from our shop, but they have never failed, or even hiccuped. Great products - great people. For the price you can't beat it. The RME pieces are beautiful, and definately a step up, but I'm not quite ready for the investment, fiber, etc.

In our current configuration we have 48 channels of pres on stage (presonus-api-john hardy). And one video camera line with a transformer balun so I can run it down the last twisted pair. We use a "tactical" CAT5 cable made by Gepco that is very flexible, it feels a bit like big mic cable. I still run one long XLR cable for our clear-com system, haven't figured out a way to fold that into the Aviom yet. open to suggestions.

-Michael
Indre Mobile, Philadelphia

[Shelton]

Do you think it's a better investment to buy a used 20-24ft bob tail truck for $18-24k or buy a new Sprinter Van for closer to upper $30k's? I know the big difference is in space and being compact...

Maintence wise, I think the operating costs would end up being less for the Sprinter than the big truck. And since you can pack so much processing power into a small system now, the Sprinter keeps looking better and better...

[mpdonahue]

Originally Posted by Shelton

Do you think it's a better investment to buy a used 20-24ft bob tail truck for $18-24k or buy a new Sprinter Van for closer to upper $30k's? I know the big difference is in space and being compact...

Maintence wise, I think the operating costs would end up being less for the Sprinter than the big truck. And since you can pack so much processing power into a small system now, the Sprinter keeps looking better and better...

We've been looking at the Sprinter vans and they are nowhere near the upper 30's. We are looking at the mid size chassis with the tall roof and it is more like the low 20's in Cargo form. And as a bonus there are no drive train options between the different models, only interior fittings.
Also we need to think about the cost of fuel these days. A 24 foor straight truck is very expensive to feed compared to the sprinter. If you are going to be driving long distances with it you should also think about the 4.10 gear option.
All the best,
Mark

[Shelton]

I was just looking on the Dodge site and configured a unit like I'd want (long frame, tall roof) and it stickered for a little over $40k. I didn't realize there was so much to come down in price. I think if I could get one in the mid $20k's that would be the way to go.

Mr Comstock,

Do you have an build pictures of your rig? It looks pretty nice.

[Remoteness]

Originally Posted by Indrestudios

Michael,

Very cool rig my man! All the best to you and yours.

I noticed you mounted your 192 I/Os, Aviom system, RADARs and such at the rear of your vehicle. What was your motivation for this setup?

Thanks!

[Remoteness]

0VU,

Excellent information gathering!

Thanks so much for your time and effort.

Man, I hope you find those other pictures.

Cheers

[bit mangler]

Hi Mike,

Your remote setup looks real cool .I also visited the aviom www where your rig is explained under the case study section.

I have a question for you :are you not loosing some sound quality due to the double AD/DA coversion happening at the aviom and the RADAR or is it an issue of convenience?

TIA

[Remoteness]

Some bumpage...

Calling Mike Comstock. I noticed you mounted your 192 I/Os, Aviom system, RADARs and such at the rear of your vehicle. What was your motivation for this setup?

Thanks

..................................

0VU, did you find those other pictures yet?

Cheers

[Shelton]

bump

[Remoteness]

Originally Posted by Remoteness

Some bumpage...

Calling Mike Comstock. I noticed you mounted your 192 I/Os, Aviom system, RADARs and such at the rear of your vehicle. What was your motivation for this setup?

Thanks

..................................

0VU, did you find those other pictures yet?

Cheers

Yeah, Bump to the third power!

What gives my man?

[Indrestudios]

Hi Steve (and all)

Sorry it took ages to reply...the little truck has been quite busy :)

With our sprinter, I really wanted to have a very clean simple "control room" inside the vehicle - and a "machine room" in the back with things that I didn't need to see during a gig. The RADARS have a great 48 channel remote meter bridge that lives inside to check levels - as does the 02r96. I did put a few key pieces inside the "control room": our Lucid master clock & the Digi Sync piece to keep an eye on code issues. It has had it's ups and downs...like getting to gear when it's raining. But all and all I'm very happy.

I'll post again about my thoughts on a/D-D/a, someone was asking about the Aviom setup. But I'm off to a gig...

-Michael

[Indrestudios]

some shameless self promotion...

http://www.indrestudios.com/thefray.mp3


Here's our rack of PreSonus pres - down the Aviom snake - tracked into ProTools - mixed in ProTools - and smushed into an mp3. :)

-Michael