Best Stand Alone Hard Disk Recorder?

[esumsea]

Hey Guys!
This is probably my first post in a long list of topics I wish to address. I am a Slut with tuns of vintage equipment I collected @ 2000 before I got sidetracked. Now I am giving it one more shot because it is a shame to let all the api, calrec, urie, neve, dbx VU, etc. gear just collect dust until I sell it, and have started to gear up for location recording. I have the mics, the pres, even compressors to do close to 24 channels of class a recording, I even have 24 jensen 4 way splitting transformers to use in a dist. box, but I am getting ahead of myself, for I am going to start off just using direct outs from in house boards or my allen and heath or digital (which I have yet to buy) mixer while I drum up business and gather momentum (hopefully) .
As of now have my tascam mx2424 and am wondering if I should sell it or try to use it for mobile/location recording. I know that this machine is primarily 24/48 but I think that is fine to start out with. I thought it would be a great machine with the partnership with timeline, but apparently there were problems. However, I have noticed that a tascam mx-2424se is now being sold. I did not use this machine hardly at all. So I am putting forth the question:

What are some options for stand alone hard disk recorders? What is up with the mx-2424se? What do you know about the mackie or alesis options?


Any help, comment, question or suggestion would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks!
Regards,
Mario
P.S. I am going to start off with 16 channels of Sonurus/Swissonic a/d coverters and am thicking of purchasing the lynx aurora or apogee converters in case you are wondering.

[Gilliland]

The Alesis HD24XR is an exceptional unit. For live on-location recording, it's an excellent machine. For that kind of work, I'd simply use its internal converters. They're quite good, and while I'm sure a set of outboard converters might be "better" in many contexts, for most live environments you're not going to get a lot of benefit from those "better" converters.

The Swissonic converters wouldn't be any better than the HD24XR's anyway (though Lynx or Apogee probably are). And if you're going to use external converters, then you also need to go with an excellent external clock. In a live concert situation, you'll be better off to keep things simple.

On the other hand, if you are going to use external converters, you might as well stick with the basic HD24. The converters aren't as good, but you won't be using them anyway. The rest of the unit is identical.

BTW, I'd never attempt to use the direct outs from the house sound. Split the mics and capture your own independent signals. The feed from the house board is going to give you nothing but trouble. Lots of FOH boards will have direct outs that are post-fader, post-EQ, so every time the FOH guy tweaks the sound, you get the result on your recording. And even when the FOH board is set up for pre-fader, pre-EQ output, he'll still screw you up by tweaking the trim-pot in the middle of the set. And, btw, the FOH guy probably doesn't even know whether his board is pre or post-fader, so you really can't rely on his answer.

I don't know anything about the Tascam unit, so I can't give you any real comparison. But I've been using my HD24 for live location recording for five years now, so I've got a lot of background with it. BTW, even though my unit will handle up to 96K, I almost never use the higher sampling rates. The difference between 48k and 96k is subtle enough that it becomes irrelevant in most live on-location situations.

Whatever system you go with, be sure to bring along a UPS. Hard disk recorders do NOT like having their power interrupted in the middle of a recording. And watch out for vibration. In some live settings, a loud sound level can cause enough vibration to trigger disk I/O errors. So keep your hard disk recorder at least somewhat isolated from the loudest sources.

[T.RayBullard]

Alesis HD24XR, RADAR, Genex....

I know of a Radar II for 4G if you are interested...

[Gerax]

I worked a few times with the MX2424, pretty solid and good sounding machine, it had a few software bugs though that I belive were fixed with following software updates; I'd stick with it if I had it, the front end converters could always be updated or bypassed using some 8ch A/D box with Tdif out.
I belive its limited succes is due to the fact that the market is moving away from HDR machines to go toward software DAWs a bit more every day; IMHO these machines (Radar above all) are still a great tool for location recording where it's unpractical to bring all that computer stuff, unless it's a laptop...HD recorder are so barebones that they aren't so easy to crash or fall prey of OSs traps.
Otherwise, I must admit that even if a bit on the low end I've had only positive results from my Mackie SDR2496 in almost five years of use on the road to hell and back. It's so deceptively simple a machine that it's never had any problems; it's out of production now, but it's still got support from Mackie, and can be had for dirt cheap on ebay (I'm looking for a second one to backup my primary one); it's loaded with all the features necessary for pro level recording, like 24 analog I/O (decent quality) and digital (ADAT, get the converters of your choice), full MIDI, WC I/O sync and SMPTE/LTC for sync to timecode. I've used it in a myriad of gigs (location recording is 50% of my job, post of the recorded tracks is the other 50%) from straight music dates to DVD productions with slave to video black. Flawless, and the tracks are great sounding (also due to the front end used before it...).
I second the things said about recording the direct out feeds from the FOH mixer, not worth it, if you have a splitter then use it. Also great point on the UPS: HDR machines are almost 100% reliable, but a power failure would leave you with nothing...better not to go there.
One last thing: whatever recorder you choose to use be sure to have a backup system, better if on a different format than your primary (I still carry 3 DA98 for live dates...they're only 16 bits and I've never had to use the tapes, but they make me feel a bit more comfortable in a live date...) and feed them a parallel split from your pres.

Hope this helps

L.G.

[muziekschuur]

Make sure you create songs, so you can stop (and save) and start every 15 minutes.

This way you can avoid the 1,5 hour recordingbarriere. Or make sure you record in BROADCAST wave.


Muziekschuur

[esumsea]

Thanks guys. Keep the input coming. Yeah, I have heard good things about the radar but it seems expensive and there are alot of revisions out there. Not sure which are upgradeable. The Alesis is intriguing, because I can take the whole A/D out of the picture for cheaper gigs (the ones I will start out with) and then bring out better converters as they become available. However, I do have the MX2424 already and at the time I bought it, I thought it was a much better unit (also much more expensive). I could sell it and get an Alesis for about 4-600 more. I would think that the sync on the mx-2424 would beat all these machines except, maybe, the RADAR. I dunno. Yes I am aware of the FOH problem, but I would only do this on boards that have a preeq,insert,fader DI. One of my main clients as an allen and heath 2800 which can be configured this way. While I have the transformers, it would still take a lot of money to buy the chasis and get them installed with multipin connectors and snakes. I know this investment is inevitable but I would rather get a few gigs first.
Regards,
Mario

[Mike Tholen]

all versions of RADAR are completely upgradeable.

I use RADAR and it has been the most solid digital device I've worked with.

[esumsea]

Thanks guys. Keep the input coming. Yeah, I have heard good things about the radar but it seems expensive and there are alot of revisions out there. Not sure which are upgradeable. The Alesis is intriguing, because I can take the whole A/D out of the picture for cheaper gigs (the ones I will start out with) and then bring out better converters as they become available. However, I do have the MX2424 already and at the time I bought it, I thought it was a much better unit (also much more expensive). I could sell it and get an Alesis for about 4-600 more. I would think that the sync on the mx-2424 would beat all these machines except, maybe, the RADAR. I dunno. Yes I am aware of the FOH problem, but I would only do this on boards that have a preeq,insert,fader DI. One of my main clients as an allen and heath 2800 which can be configured this way. While I have the transformers, it would still take a lot of money to buy the chasis and get them installed with multipin connectors and snakes. I know this investment is inevitable but I would rather get a few gigs first.
Regards,
Mario

[Jim vanBergen]

In the 90s I was in the remote truck biz (now I'm strictly freelance) and we had eight DA machines and a pair of Mackie HDR (master)/MDR(slave) 24 ch recorders. I prefer them over the MX2424 simply in terms of ease of use and reliability (I had many bad experiences with the 2424 on several instances, slightly fewer on the Mackies- things like dropping out, sync problems, refusing to record proper tracks, etc- sometimes user issues and sometimes software, rare that the problem was hardware.)

I think the Mackie was slightly better sounding at 16 bit and a lot nicer at 24bit.

Within 12 months of us buying this 48 channel system, IZ Systems brought out a new RADAR system that I adored...and at a very reasonable price point, though more expensive.

I have since used the Alesis, and contnue to use the Mackies (they are paid for).
The RADAR is a better system than the others, hands down. Just LISTEN. The converters are really nice, the master controller is easy to operate, and the company has stayed in business and provided excellent customer support...which I have not had from Alesis or Mackie.

Now. Any of these units will provide a decent, adequate platform. PERIOD. You have to decide for yourself your budget, needs, desires, and criteria upon which to base your decisions. Oh, when WE were building our rig, no one had successfully installed a PT system in a remote truck. Now, they are DE RIGEUR! All my recordings are imported straight to PT. Why waste a step? But hey- your decision.

Hope these thoughts help!

Jim

[yrplace]

I'd suggest having a look at the Genex 9048 . It will record 48 tracks up to 192k and even DSD. They will custom configure it anyway you want (8-16-14-32 track etc) and a MADI card is also available .....cheap.

The Genex is more than the Tascam but much less than the Radar.

We record on the Genex and then copy the WAV time stamped files into a PT session , spot the files and we're set. I know a lot of people are doing live stuff direct to Pro-Tools, but I've just seen highquality rental systems crash too often to be considered reliable.

In fact we just bought our 2nd 9048 so for 48 track shows we can eliminate having to run 6 MDM's for backup.

BTW they also have a mix engine, hardware remote (we use a laptop) and soon a 48 chl remote mic pre that will output analog, AES and MADI. We are currently using the Aphex 1788 remote pres, but I am real interested in the Genex pre both or the MADI and the fact that it'll be a mere 4 rack spaces tall!! (48 tracks of Aphex take up 16 spaces)

Mark

[Remoteness]

There are tons of threads about RADAR, Genex 9048, Tascam X48 & MX2424, Alesis, sMackie and such...

Do a search in this forum for more information!

[jwh1192]

i had someone tell me that the X48 was out ... april fools i guess .. i have seen mark's genex in action ... his rig was on an HD shoot for Prince ... 2 of those will make a real compact rig .. with the Mackie Xbus he uses for monitor / mixing it keeps getting smaller all the time ..

steve,

have you heard anymore news about when these come out .. ???

john

[Remoteness]

They keep pushing the date. They're talking about AES time. But, you never know.

[yrplace]

Originally Posted by jwh1192

i had someone tell me that the X48 was out ... april fools i guess .. i have seen mark's genex in action ... his rig was on an HD shoot for Prince ... 2 of those will make a real compact rig .. with the Mackie Xbus he uses for monitor / mixing it keeps getting smaller all the time ..

steve,

have you heard anymore news about when these come out .. ???

john

With the new 48 chl preamp package plus a splitter a 48 track Genex hard disk system would be a mere 8 rack spaces (plus a couple for ventilation.) It is getting smaller which in some ways is kind of scary.

Mark

BTW, here's what we had out w/ Santana. 72 tracks of Genex w/ DA-78 backup and some spares. Aphex and ATI mic pres:

[T.RayBullard]

Originally Posted by yrplace

With the new 48 chl preamp package plus a splitter a 48 track Genex hard disk system would be a mere 8 rack spaces (plus a couple for ventilation.) It is getting smaller which in some ways is kind of scary.

Mark

BTW, here's what we had out w/ Santana. 72 tracks of Genex w/ DA-78 backup and some spares. Aphex and ATI mic pres:

I was looking into Genex(DSD really is the reason) but as I went to their website and forum, I saw that it looked like a ghost town....is support good for these boxes?

[jenkel16]

Originally Posted by yrplace

With the new 48 chl preamp package plus a splitter a 48 track Genex hard disk system would be a mere 8 rack spaces (plus a couple for ventilation.) It is getting smaller which in some ways is kind of scary.

Mark

BTW, here's what we had out w/ Santana. 72 tracks of Genex w/ DA-78 backup and some spares. Aphex and ATI mic pres:

How much of a pain is it to haul the dxb around with you everywhere (if you do, that is)?

[yrplace]

Originally Posted by jenkel16

How much of a pain is it to haul the dxb around with you everywhere (if you do, that is)?

No its really easy as we have a nice roadcase for it. The mixer itself is very small, weighs nothing and is extremely powerful ( love the recall and the VST plugins)

We only use it as a monitor console but it is in fact easier tha the 48 chl rack mixer we used to haul around.

Mark

[yrplace]

Originally Posted by T.RayBullard

I was looking into Genex(DSD really is the reason) but as I went to their website and forum, I saw that it looked like a ghost town....is support good for these boxes?

They don't seem to be keeping up with their website, but the service has been really good. They've even rented a machine for me one time when mine wasn't fixed in time for a gig.

And yes we just bought another one......... Looks like I'll be selling a bunch of DA-78's soon.

Mark

[yrplace]

Originally Posted by jenkel16

How much of a pain is it to haul the dxb around with you everywhere (if you do, that is)?

I wanted to add that if the Mackie had a MADI card (don't hold yr breath) it would be the most fantastic thing we own. One fiber cable from the Genex to the console and you've got 64 chls of 48k digital audio........ I WANT IT!!! (yeah I know I could buy another RME box and 8 ADAT cards for the Mackie. Too much $$ and too messy.)

Mark

[jenkel16]

Are they still funny and buggy or did mackie get that sorted, or were you lucky in getting one that wasn't? It is an extremely good idea/design, I have to admit that I'm not real impressed with the execution of that idea, however.

MADI would make that killer!stike

[yrplace]

Originally Posted by jenkel16

Are they still funny and buggy or did mackie get that sorted, or were you lucky in getting one that wasn't? It is an extremely good idea/design, I have to admit that I'm not real impressed with the execution of that idea, however.

MADI would make that killer!stike

we used a demo console for several gigs before taking the plunge and so far I've been very happy with the console and the recent software update.

There are a bunch of small things that need updating/ fixing in the software which hopefully will be in the next big build of the software. What's nice is all that is possible since the console is really just a computer. And I love the entire touchscreen concept.

So for now it is the perfect (well except for no MADI) console for us.

Mark

[esumsea]

I have been having a tough time with the Tascam. I bought and external enclosure and tried to get it to work and had no luck. I call Tascam and had to wait 1 hr (REALLY) for a tech who was completely incompetent. Finally I was told that I could only use the cables, terminators, enclosures and hot swap bays that were provided in a document produced in 2002. Nothing else will work or at least they don’t want to spend the time to help you make it work. It goes on but needless to say I find myself alone.
I am seriously considering buying a Radar and abandoning the Tascam, except I just paid over $2100 for a big ben and a AD16 and the radar itself is expensive. I have heard mostly good things about the Radar converter, though some say they are colored. I know the Alesis are cheaper and still manufactured today. The Genex seems out of my price range. It seems that the Alesis are more reliable than the Mackies and I can use my Big ben and apogee converters to help things along. The only thing that bugs me is that it records in a strange format that you need to then convert to .wav files. This process seems lengthy. I am just disappointed in tascam and don’t know if I want to spend another $400 on a drive and hotswap bay to try to get it to work. That is another thing about the Alesis is that it uses very cheap drives.
Any more comments, suggestions or criticisms are welcomed.
Thanks!
Mario

[Gerax]

Well, the only thing I can say about the Tascam is that yes, it had some issues when it came out, as we were some kind of beta testers for Tascam in the studio I was working in (we got to try and have things for free, but sometimes they had issues in the middle of a session... ); they said all those issues, most were on the software side, were fixed with the following releases, but I can say for sure as I haven't worked with the MX2424 ever since.
I can add a few words on the Alesis /Mackie: I have worked with both, they're both really solid pieces of gear; I have the Mackie and the only things I can complain about it are some clocking issues that aren't bugs, but just the way they are though out and implemented in the machine, for example the fact that you cannot lock to incoming timecde if the machine is clocked to an external source...BAD as I use external preamps with AD and WC from those...and I have to lock to timecode for video shoots... Apart this the machine really is solid and bloody simple to use: it allows file swapping to a workstation in a matter of seconds if a compatible drive bay is installed (which I did) and it records standard .BWF files. I know that the Alesis standard is less fragmentation prone, but, who cares? There are defrag apps out there, although I have to say the Alesis is a solid machine too.

Hope thsi helps

L.G.

[Gilliland]

Originally Posted by esumsea

I know the Alesis are cheaper and still manufactured today. The Genex seems out of my price range. It seems that the Alesis are more reliable than the Mackies and I can use my Big ben and apogee converters to help things along. The only thing that bugs me is that it records in a strange format that you need to then convert to .wav files. This process seems lengthy.

If you have a Fireport, it is fast and easy to transfer your tracks from the Alesis HD24 to your DAW. There's even some third party freeware that can do the transfer. And the converters on the HD24XR are really quite good. The machine is amazingly solid.

The number of members in the HD24 user group (on Yahoo) is approaching 1500. It is a very active and supportive user community. In fact, I'm surprised at just how fast it's been growing lately. It seems like the HD24 is drawing in a lot of new users these days - even though it's been on the market for five years now. (A quick check shows 14 new members in the past seven days.)

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/hd24/ for anyone who is interested.

[T.RayBullard]

Originally Posted by Gilliland

If you have a Fireport, it is fast and easy to transfer your tracks from the Alesis HD24 to your DAW. There's even some third party freeware that can do the transfer. And the converters on the HD24XR are really quite good. The machine is amazingly solid.

The number of members in the HD24 user group (on Yahoo) is approaching 1500. It is a very active and supportive user community. In fact, I'm surprised at just how fast it's been growing lately. It seems like the HD24 is drawing in a lot of new users these days - even though it's been on the market for five years now. (A quick check shows 14 new members in the past seven days.)

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/hd24/ for anyone who is interested.

Yes, in particular..the user "marc brevoort" is a genius.

[Gilliland]

Originally Posted by T.RayBullard

Yes, in particular..the user "marc brevoort" is a genius.

I agree completely! The work that he has done in opening up the HD24's disk format and developing software to read it and troubleshoot it is phenomenal!

[PDC]

Originally Posted by Gilliland

If you have a Fireport, it is fast and easy to transfer your tracks from the Alesis HD24 to your DAW. There's even some third party freeware that can do the transfer. And the converters on the HD24XR are really quite good. The machine is amazingly solid.

The number of members in the HD24 user group (on Yahoo) is approaching 1500. It is a very active and supportive user community. In fact, I'm surprised at just how fast it's been growing lately. It seems like the HD24 is drawing in a lot of new users these days - even though it's been on the market for five years now. (A quick check shows 14 new members in the past seven days.)

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/hd24/ for anyone who is interested.

There is software provided with the Fireport. I capture with the Alesis at on location bi-weekly, then bring the drive back to my place, import to the Mac and then import into ProTools. It is a long process importing into PT, but that is not an Alesis issue. I wish that they would have made the Alesis work with SCSI and/or hot swappable with Pro Tools. It would have made it much faster.

[edwinhurwitz]

Originally Posted by PDC

There is software provided with the Fireport. I capture with the Alesis at on location bi-weekly, then bring the drive back to my place, import to the Mac and then import into ProTools. It is a long process importing into PT, but that is not an Alesis issue. I wish that they would have made the Alesis work with SCSI and/or hot swappable with Pro Tools. It would have made it much faster.

Why does it take you so long to import into PT? I just drag and drop and it's ready to go. It does calculate the waveform, but that happens in the background.


Edwin

[PDC]

Originally Posted by edwinhurwitz

Why does it take you so long to import into PT? I just drag and drop and it's ready to go. It does calculate the waveform, but that happens in the background.


Edwin

Because I am using 6.2 and it does not support drag and drop. I have to import audio to track. 40GB of audio takes a while.

[the1Hub]

Originally Posted by T.RayBullard

I was looking into Genex(DSD really is the reason) but as I went to their website and forum, I saw that it looked like a ghost town....is support good for these boxes?

one of the best companies i have ever delt with as far as customer support. we use 3 genex 9000 for dsd recording.