DAV BG-2 vs. Millennia HV-3D

[Mike Derrick]

Originally Posted by ISedlacek

If the sound differences are such that you need to look for them with a microscope in scientific laboratory conditions, then they are most probably meaningless for a practical life and it does not matter what you use in the end (because no one will hear a difference)

Some differences are however clear and obvious immediately, in spite of the common small variables you mentioned ... These are the ones which can have some meaning and practical implications in a decisive process ...

Millennia/DAV differences belong definitely to the latter category. WHich you prefer is a matter of personal taste

Hi Ivo

I hear what you're saying, and I suppose your test was just to give yourself a rough idea of the preamps' characteristics, but I was suggesting that mic placements can potentially produce greater variations in the sound you hear than the differences between two different high end micpreamps. I wasn't so much trying to tell you to be overly picky about the very microscopic details so you can hear those microscopic details, however that being said, the more accurate your test, the more accurately you'll be able to determine the true differences between your preamps, whether those differences turn out to be small or great.

I agree with you (to a certain degree) that mics placed head to head (aimed at the same source) (or however you did it) may sound "close enough" to get a vague overall feel for how the two preamps exhibit their character. However I'm trying to figure out where on an acoustic guitar you can get away with that.

If you are close micing or reasonably close...

Vertically speaking if one mic is above the other than it will pick up the low strings more prominently, and the other the high strings, assuming both mics are aimed at the fret board....or even one may be picking up sound below/above the fret board and the other directly picking up the character of the fret board and the strings.

Horizontally speaking if the mics are beside each other, one mic is gonna be closer to the sound hole than the other, and of course one will contain more boom and the other less.

Obviously the end result is that the preamps will sound different even if your 2 preamps were the exact identical preamps.

If you are further away, then I suppose you're gonna have less of a difference to worry about,...and perhaps that's what you did,...but that's why I was asking for more details on your set-up.

I don't own or work with either the Mellenia or the DAV so I have no bias for either preamp, but they both interest me, and it is interesting to hear peoples thoughts about gear.

One suggestion I guess would be to keep your set-up and do what you did, but also to add a recording of the same thing but switching the mic inputs between the two preamps so each preamps "sees" each mic (or each micpreamp has an audio file for both mics) You could then cross reference the audio files to see if one mic exhibits a certain characteristic regardless of preamp used to record it.

I dunno, maybe I'm being too picky for your tastes and for the scope of your test, and maybe I'm boring some folks but you posted it publically and i thought I'd hold ya accountable for the details of your test so us readers could guage the objectivity/subjectivity of your opinions and understand the accuracy of your test.

[ISedlacek]

Originally Posted by Mike Derrick

Hi Ivo

I hear what you're saying, and I suppose your test was just to give yourself a rough idea of the preamps' characteristics

Hi Mike,
first of all, it was not me who did the above test you are refering to ...

Originally Posted by Mike Derrick

, but I was suggesting that mic placements can potentially produce greater variations in the sound you hear than the differences between two different high end micpreamps.

AMEN. That´s simply a fact I experienced many times. Yet, there IS a direct overall sound difference between some preamps independent on mics positions.

Originally Posted by Mike Derrick

Obviously the end result is that the preamps will sound different even if your 2 preamps were the exact identical preamps.

For sure there is a direct sound difference between some preamps - and it can be quite obvious even if your mics etc. settings are not exactly scientific. Otherwise there would be no point to use and produce more than one preamp brand.
If you are used to one preamp for a long period of time and one day you connect another preamp, you may hear the difference immediately, without much care for setting ...

Originally Posted by Mike Derrick

I don't own or work with either the Mellenia or the DAV so I have no bias for either preamp, but they both interest me, and it is interesting to hear peoples thoughts about gear.

If you are not sure about the experiences of others (which is partly good), the only way to know is to try for yourself.

That said, I am most probably going to try Croockwood iPre and to compare it to DAV very soon ... ALthough DAV sounds very nice, there are some levels of perception where I would maybe still imagine and prefer something a bit different, more clean, more open, more detailed, less instantly "beautified". But not in Millennia way. It is simply not for me ...

[T.RayBullard]

my favorite recording of all time was recorded using a stereo mic...directly into a dat deck...

I came to the realization a few days ago that I have been spending far too much time worrying about chasing a "preamp sound" and not nearly enough time working on my ability to engineer...Ive got 20ish channels of DAV and a couple of millennias.....and if I cant get the most beautiful, orgasmic , cosmic sound out of that,..it aint the gears fault!! Ive failed to realize that in the scheme of things, (at least for the recording that I do),,,the preamps just dont matter as much as some would lead others to believe! I see too much relying on gear for this sound or that sound, too many gimmicks, marketing hype, endorsements from Joe Snuffy at enema records, "this preamp sounds like 30 IPS duct tape from 1947"!!!or NEVE!!! blah blah blah leading dumbasses like myself into audio slaughter as I lean heavily to get results and always come up empty handed. PLush keeps saying "the preamp doesnt make the sound, the musician does" well, why didnt I hear that before(I mean not just read it, but HEAR It, take it to heart!) I am constantly emailing guys whom I look up to , trying to get advice from them, and all of them have said at some point that as long as the gear is designed well(low noise, enough gain, rugged), it really doesnt matter..moving a mic this way or that, or acoustics, etc etc etc etc make so much more of a difference...


Ive personally decided to quit participating in this marketing blitzkrieg, to use my current gear until the blasted wheels fall off. Ive got everything I need to make a wonderful recording, provided that my skills get up to par...If I never put time and effort where it matters...developing my abilty, working with good musicians, good acoustic, etc....a preamp change isnt going to do dick. People lean on these funny little boxes as if they are the incarnation of God himself, for miracles....for comfort, for salvation. Not me, I am finding it all a little silly. The "next best thing" for me is woodshedding and getting to where I am worth a damn. The gear is already there. Sometimes when I look at gear dealers catalogues(SP), I am reminded of a drive through window at McDonalds.Gear has all of the same buzzwords, celebrity endoresements, it is packed in preservatives, pretty presentation, and will make you fat, sluggish, and complacent.

bah. if the audio realm were to need an enema, some gear manufacturers would be the point of insertion...

[d_fu]

Originally Posted by T.RayBullard

Ive failed to realize that in the scheme of things, (at least for the recording that I do),,,the preamps just dont matter as much as some would lead others to believe! [Snip] PLush keeps saying "the preamp doesnt make the sound, the musician does" well, why didnt I hear that before(I mean not just read it, but HEAR It, take it to heart!) I am constantly emailing guys whom I look up to , trying to get advice from them, and all of them have said at some point that as long as the gear is designed well(low noise, enough gain, rugged), it really doesnt matter..moving a mic this way or that, or acoustics, etc etc etc etc make so much more of a difference...

Amen to that... Couldn't agree more.
My first preamps were an old Behringer stereo thing (PreQ 502, from the olden days, when they made some decent stuff) and a Mackie 1202, and if I don't like the way some of my earlier classical recordings sound, it sure wasn't the preamps' fault... I'd say esp. in classical setups, apart from the music itself, it's the hall that matters most, then the placement of the mics, then the quality of the mics, and then only (at a good distance from the other factors) would the preamps and AD converters play a limited role in making a recording sound good or not...

A good mic into a so-so preamp will produce better results than the other way round. And fantastic recordings have been made with ancient 16/44 ADCs...

Apart from that, I'm looking forward to tyring out a Micstasy soon...

Daniel

[Remoteness]

Originally Posted by T.RayBullard

Ive failed to realize that in the scheme of things, (at least for the recording that I do),,,the preamps just dont matter as much as some would lead others to believe! [Snip] PLush keeps saying "the preamp doesnt make the sound, the musician does" well, why didnt I hear that before(I mean not just read it, but HEAR It, take it to heart!) I am constantly emailing guys whom I look up to , trying to get advice from them, and all of them have said at some point that as long as the gear is designed well(low noise, enough gain, rugged), it really doesnt matter..moving a mic this way or that, or acoustics, etc etc etc etc make so much more of a difference...

I too agree with this mindset.

IMO, most manufactures and their reps would like you to think otherwise.

Musicianship, mic placement and acoustics with good quality equipment are the key components to making good music recordings. Period, end of story.

[Omicron_9]

Originally Posted by Mike Derrick

Omi,

Just trying to visualize in my head how you did your test...
You said you had 2 acoustic guitars.
You said you used 2 matched stereo mics.
Why not use one mic, and avoid phasing issues?
How did you get your guitars back into the exact same position for the change of preamps, (assuming and hoping you did not put up both mics together and then into separate micpreamps at the same time.)

I ask because in my experiences with micing acoustic guitars the position of the mic in relation to the acoustic instument can be a fickle and dramatic thing even over small distances, meaning even distances the size of a mic, IMHO.

So depending on how you set-up,...
some variables in the differences you hear could be from other factors other than the 2 preamps,...to have a fair evaluation I would assume you'd need to have;
- the guitar remains in same position (performer stays in same position throughout test)
- mic stays in same position (one mic preferred IMHO)
- one preamp at a time (since if you have 2 mics occupying two different locations going simultaneously to two different preamps, you will have two different sound characters coming through each mic because of their two different locations.)
- exact same gain input, same output level, (if possible)
- performer must perform each performance as exact as possible, (best to have multiple takes of the same performance for each preamp) so hopefully a short section of a song the performer has performed lots over many years so that the performances are nearly identical as possible.
- match median levels of audio files for when listening back.

could you explain in more detail your set-up?

Hi,

I'd be happy to try to shed some light here. First of all, I don't claim to be scientifically perfect. Nothing was meant to be definitive; I wasn't trying to prove anything to anyone except myself. Take anything I say with a grain of salt; after all, it's just one person's opinion and findings. You refer to it as a "test," I don't. Just a simple comparison.

It was a matched pair of AKG C-414 XL-II, but not in a stereo mic'ing setup. Both mics were placed side by side, as physically close as I could get them. One was going to the Millennia, the other to the DAV. The levels were audibly matched in that I didn't hear one being louder than the other. I had a controller next to me wherein I could mute either mic, and I was monitoring through AKG K-271 phones. I tried two positions: remaining stationary, and then turning toward the "live" mic to compensate for the distance (maybe an inch or two) between capsules. Again, not scientific; nor was it intended to be. But it was a good comparison for ME. Not trying to prove anything to anyone, just me.

Also, keep in mind that I'd been using the Millennia for a couple of years, and the 414s for probably a year, all in my live room, and as such, am very familiar with their sound. And I can't emphasize this enough: this was just a comparison for me, for my curiosity and reference. Not trying to convince or influence anyone else in the least; just a friendly sharing of my findings for anyone who might be interested.

That was over six months ago, and many tracking sessions since then have only reinforced my original impressions. I still like both amps equally.

I suppose if you want more than that, then I invite you to get both amps into your studio and have at them; use the methods you describe and arrive at your own opinions and conclusions.

Hope that helps.

Kindly,
-0.9

[Mike Derrick]

Omi,

Thanks for clarifying the context for me, well said, thanks also for sharing your thoughts.

[ISedlacek]

Originally Posted by T.RayBullard

People lean on these funny little boxes as if they are the incarnation of God himself, for miracles....for comfort, for salvation. Not me, I am finding it all a little silly.

Oh my ... seems you underwent some serious deep inner transforming experience ...

[mastert]

Originally Posted by Omicron_9

Greetings.
I ask what mics you're using w/your BG-1?

Same question for the other BG-x users?

Best regards,
-O.9

Neumann M149, M147, Tlm 170, Tlm 193, Tlm 103
Schoeps Cmc5 Mk 4
Ksm 44

[ISedlacek]

Originally Posted by mastert

Neumann M149, M147, Tlm 170, Tlm 193, Tlm 103
Schoeps Cmc5 Mk 4
Ksm 44

I can see a nice collection of preamps in your studio (Neve, Weiss, Millennia, Focusrite). When do you prefer to use DAV over these ?

[AMIEL]

I love Millenia!! for clean sounds are amazing!!

how much did you pay for the DAV BG2?
Ehat are you recently feeling and differences u found between both preamps now?

[mastert]

Originally Posted by ISedlacek

I can see a nice collection of preamps in your studio (Neve, Weiss, Millennia, Focusrite).

Thanks

Originally Posted by ISedlacek

When do you prefer to use DAV over these ?

I try before using..... generally use the DAV for the strings, classic guitar.
Today i use for OH in the jazz drums setup.
I like

[T.RayBullard]

Originally Posted by ISedlacek

Oh my ... seems you underwent some serious deep inner transforming experience ...

That I did. It is called becoming a civilian. Now that I am away from that fast pace atmosphere(army) and have time to think, ive come to terms with the fact that I was really putting all of my focus in the wrong place instead of where it matters. From here out if I spend money it will be to get more of what preamps I already have and know, or mics. I dont plan on chasing "next big thing" anymore. Past a certain point, it is all a load of rubbish anyway. Gear is light years ahead of where it was 20 years ago, and even teenagers have access to better gear at present than existed for some back then. Ill be married to DAV for life, or until they arent around anymore.. The important thing too, is to know the tools you are working with, and , at least for me, it takes a VERY long time to know anything about a piece of gear..months, years...for me to have a piece a month or so..or for a few gigs gives me no idea whatsoever how and when to use it. As I mentioned before(i think) a friend of mine relayed to me a story of a Denon Employee(development, engineer) who is also a location recordist...When the gentleman was asked about what pres he uses in the field(and for rather big clients mind you), he responded " I use the pres in my Mackie VLZ mixer" when he was immediately asked why, he responded"They are transparent, low noise, portable, have loads of gain, and I know them". Simple really, makes a lot of sense to me.
in light of that and some other things I have seen and heard, I realize just how idiotic gear snobbery is.


oh yeah...and per the CROOKWOOD thing....Back when I was interested in those, I relayed at least 15 or so emails to Crispin(think that is his name). only two of which were answered..I Dont plan on buying anything from him. I realize that they wont be better than what I already have anyway, other than the remote control thing, but luckily I have two hands and two feet to make adjustments, so no real loss there. I know Plush has great taste and I was sorta dissapointed at the time that he didnt make contact, but oh well.

[Don S]

Originally Posted by ISedlacek

Oh my ... seems you underwent some serious deep inner transforming experience ...

The New Teddy!?!
Welcome home Teddy! I'm currently settling in CA. Gave up on the cold weather and tax increases in Jersey.
I hope your family are doing well.

[pianoman]

I've been speaking with one of the engineers at Royer and with Mick from DAV. Turns out I had some misconceptions which I'd like to clear up:

1. The bump in the Royer impedance is of the order of 1.5dB -- i.e. roughly 50%, not a factor of 5. This bump is near 40Hz or so and is due to an artifact of the physical size of the R-121 ribbon and the appropriate mechanical tension on the ribbon. Can't easily be designed around. Royer recommends an input impedance of 1500 ohms or greater. To add margin for this bass bump, I suppose you'd want >2K ohms.

2. The input impedance of the DAV preamp with the pad in is 1.3K ohms. Only an idiot would use the pad with a ribbon mic. The input impedance of the DAV preamp with the pad out, which of course you'd use for a ribbon mic, is 10K ohms. This is plenty to ensure the ribbon is not in any discernable way driving a load or suffering damping due to preamp impedance.

So any "user pains" on Royer and DAV are not in any way due an impedance mismatch. Which begs the question: if the R-122 is just using FETs for impedance matching, what is the fundmental source of the gain relative to the R-121? But that's probably another thread.

In terms of users, just reporting the news: Royer says their mic with Millenia preamp are used by Sony, Warner Bros, etc. Well done. That said, apparently Mark Knopfler is recording his new acoustic album using Royers (no phantom power, so no Royer isolation) and DAV preamps.

Originally Posted by pianoman

I've been considering a ribbon mic and, to my sadness as a happy BG owner, have heard mixed reviews. The qualitative statement I've been hearing is that the DAV lacks bass on Royer ribbons compared with the Millenia. This is from experienced GS people who own both preamps. This is consistent with what I understand to be an impedance resonance in the bass of more than 1k ohm, where the input impedance of the preamp needs to be at least 5x higher, but the DAV impedance is 1.3k ohms. So I'd like to ask the more experienced out there --

Is there a solution which gets the great DAV sound out of ribbons and preserves all the phase, etc. information? Or, for that matter, do some of you have a contrary experience in which the DAV is indeed the big, full, round sound from the ribbons, too? In which case, which ribbons?

[ISedlacek]

Tomorrow I will receive a pair of these ribbons for an evaluation (I will use them with DAV, of course):

[Omicron_9]

Originally Posted by ISedlacek

Tomorrow I will receive a pair of these ribbons for an evaluation (I will use them with DAV, of course):

Cool, Ivo! Keep us posted, please.

Kind regards,
-0.9

[leifislive]

Teddy needs to go back to Germany....

[nandoanalog]

Originally Posted by T.RayBullard

my favorite recording of all time was recorded using a stereo mic...directly into a dat deck...

I came to the realization a few days ago that I have been spending far too much time worrying about chasing a "preamp sound" and not nearly enough time working on my ability to engineer...Ive got 20ish channels of DAV and a couple of millennias.....and if I cant get the most beautiful, orgasmic , cosmic sound out of that,..it aint the gears fault!! Ive failed to realize that in the scheme of things, (at least for the recording that I do),,,the preamps just dont matter as much as some would lead others to believe! I see too much relying on gear for this sound or that sound, too many gimmicks, marketing hype, endorsements from Joe Snuffy at enema records, "this preamp sounds like 30 IPS duct tape from 1947"!!!or NEVE!!! blah blah blah leading dumbasses like myself into audio slaughter as I lean heavily to get results and always come up empty handed. PLush keeps saying "the preamp doesnt make the sound, the musician does" well, why didnt I hear that before(I mean not just read it, but HEAR It, take it to heart!) I am constantly emailing guys whom I look up to , trying to get advice from them, and all of them have said at some point that as long as the gear is designed well(low noise, enough gain, rugged), it really doesnt matter..moving a mic this way or that, or acoustics, etc etc etc etc make so much more of a difference...


Ive personally decided to quit participating in this marketing blitzkrieg, to use my current gear until the blasted wheels fall off. Ive got everything I need to make a wonderful recording, provided that my skills get up to par...If I never put time and effort where it matters...developing my abilty, working with good musicians, good acoustic, etc....a preamp change isnt going to do dick. People lean on these funny little boxes as if they are the incarnation of God himself, for miracles....for comfort, for salvation. Not me, I am finding it all a little silly. The "next best thing" for me is woodshedding and getting to where I am worth a damn. The gear is already there. Sometimes when I look at gear dealers catalogues(SP), I am reminded of a drive through window at McDonalds.Gear has all of the same buzzwords, celebrity endoresements, it is packed in preservatives, pretty presentation, and will make you fat, sluggish, and complacent.

bah. if the audio realm were to need an enema, some gear manufacturers would be the point of insertion...

I`m with you.

[T.RayBullard]

we are doing phenomenal, loving the country life. just got my business running, got my first 1000 business cards yesterday. Got gigs in April and June so far. Looking forward to recording againthanks Don!Welcome home Teddy! I'm currently settling in CA. Gave up on the cold weather and tax increases in Jersey.
I hope your family are doing well.[/QUOTE]

[Serkhochian]

Omicron 9 Hi, thanks for your excellent comparative description of these preamps. I am currently deciding between these two brands, so far prefer Dav, but my question is about the inherent noise of the BG.
You have an audio file comparing these two preamps, where I can listen and evaluate?
Thank you very much,
regards
Fernando Serkhochian

[king2070lplaya]

Noise? I crank those baby's on ribbons at pretty much every session and still get no noise. Whatchutalkinbout?

[Jim Williams]

I've lowered noise on ver.3 DAV's by removing the input 47 ohm series resistors and replacing them with ferrite beads for rf protection. Then replace the that 1510 mic preamp chip with an Analog Devices SSM2019.

[Omicron_9]

Originally Posted by Serkhochian

Omicron 9 Hi, thanks for your excellent comparative description of these preamps. I am currently deciding between these two brands, so far prefer Dav, but my question is about the inherent noise of the BG.
You have an audio file comparing these two preamps, where I can listen and evaluate?
Thank you very much,
regards
Fernando Serkhochian

Hi,

Wow, an old thread! I sold my DAV about a year after that post. I do classical chamber recording, and I couldn't take the self-noise. I've not heard other people say very much about the self-noise, so either I had a bad one, or no one else is bothered by hiss. I had shipped it back to Mick to repair some harsh crackling and bacon frying sounds when it arrived, so again, maybe I had a bad one. I have noticed around here that if you mention self-noise or hiss, you will get accused of misusing the gear, not knowing anything about gain staging, not knowing what you're talking about; basically anything except acknowledgment of the problem.

I'm still using the Millennia. Haven't found anything I like as well, but that's just me. I did like what the DAV did to the signal; it wasn't transparent, but very pleasant.

Just one person's experience and preference.

Regards,
-0.9

[Serkhochian]

Ok, I appreciate your response -O.9

regards

[Omicron_9]

Originally Posted by Jim Williams

I've lowered noise on ver.3 DAV's by removing the input 47 ohm series resistors and replacing them with ferrite beads for rf protection. Then replace the that 1510 mic preamp chip with an Analog Devices SSM2019.

Jim,

Just curious here: can you cite the EIN before and after your mod? No doubt it is quite helpful and welcome.

Regards,
-0.9

[didier.brest]

The preamp self-noise cannot be an issue with most condenser microphones, even the quietest ones. For instance the C414 XLII mentioned here has 6 dBA self noise, which corresponds to more than 16 dB SPL unweighted = -78 dB re. 1 Pa, and it sensitivity equals -34 dB re. 1V/Pa. Then the electrical noise level generated at the preamp input is larger than -78 - 34 = -112 dBV = - 110 dBu unweighted, which is far above the self noise of any normal preamp.