Do most venue setups take balanced TRS line-ins?

[stuartb]

It would need to be converted to XLR to go into the desk. All venues will carry DI boxes which do exactly that job. But they might not carry 8 DI boxes, so it is def worth finding out in advance how many they have in stock. Also it is a good idea to carry your own 8 way jack to jack loom, 2m or 3m should do the job. If you reply on a small size venue to give you 8 jack to jacks, then you might end up with bottom of the barrel cables of a dubious quality.

On another note, are you sure your audio interface is outputting stereo on TRS jacks? most are mono and would have to pair up two channels for stereo.

[loujudson]

More important is mic or line level. If you are sending line level to a stage snake, it will need a DI with a pad, unless the board and the engineer are professional and flexible.

You can get an 8 channel TRS to XLR male snake, just be sure to tell the house engineer it is line level - or be prepared to turn your levels down a bunch. AND hope that there is not ground difference between the stage power and the house sound system...

If you want to be really prepared and wise, get your own 8 channel DI in a rack!
Radial ProD8™ - Eight Channel Rackmount DI

You'll be respected and appreciated showing up at a gig with this...

[jetam]

What interface are you using?
If the output TRSs are really stereo than you need a Y cable before the DI box. If the outs are unbalanced it's also much better to use a DI than a simple adapter.

[jrbrugger]

I'm using the PreSonus Audiobox 1818vsl (I don't recommend it, I have had a lot of driver problems and it randomly shuts off in the middle of my live set on Ableton.. I might send it back if I can't find a solution).

Okay back onto the relevant topic..... On the back it says line-balanced TRS outputs. I don't think I can utilize this function however, because I use Ableton and I don't know how to send a balanced signal to one output - it only gives me two balanced TRS' (such as 1/2 and 3/4, and then it has a list of the mono channels below but the sound is straight up mono).

I've got 8 balanced cables that I use right now (all custom made mogami).. but I might consider making one side a male end XLR, I soldered these myself in the first place and I can redo the soldering/connector most likely. I had to use DI boxes live before (borrowed) but do those work for balanced cables or does it only work for unbalanced? I don't remember if I used my balanced cables or not, its been a while.

In terms of my own experience ["theories"] and the balanced signal making a difference in sound, I noticed that when it was plugged into my mixer, the two left and right balanced signals get a sort of phasing or surround sound/stereo effect, whereas the two unbalanced cables were just flat (left and right), and I wasn't getting any phased surround-panning effect on the synths programmed to swirl around the speakers.

OR I could be completely mistaking this for some other reason... I've been really interested in what exactly does this. However, I am assuming that balanced cables support that surround sound ability? Any ideas on this as well?

[Andy Hamm]

You don't mention what you are using it for, are you a tech or a musician or neither?

Assuming you are a musician, yes get a quarter to xlr male snake. The house snake will be xlr.

[jrbrugger]

I am a musician this is for performing my music live.

[Hardtoe]

Why 8 outs? A well mixed stereo out would be a lot simpler....

[loujudson]

You can use TS unbalanced cable for the 1818. I almost got one for recording, but ordered a 2626 instead...

(Andy, of course he's a musician. A tech would know this already!)

[jetam]

You have no freaking idea what the term "balanced" means.
First check this.
Balanced audio - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

When the TRS connector is used for a balanced connection, it can be only used for one channel - you need two of them for stereo. TRS connectors aren't very common for stereo except when used for headphones (unbalanced).

As the outputs are balanced, you can use a simple TRS to XLR cable.

Originally Posted by jrbrugger

I'm using the PreSonus Audiobox 1818vsl (I don't recommend it, I have had a lot of driver problems and it randomly shuts off in the middle of my live set on Ableton.. I might send it back if I can't find a solution).

Okay back onto the relevant topic..... On the back it says line-balanced TRS outputs. I don't think I can utilize this function however, because I use Ableton and I don't know how to send a balanced signal to one output - it only gives me two balanced TRS' (such as 1/2 and 3/4, and then it has a list of the mono channels below but the sound is straight up mono).

I've got 8 balanced cables that I use right now (all custom made mogami).. but I might consider making one side a male end XLR, I soldered these myself in the first place and I can redo the soldering/connector most likely. I had to use DI boxes live before (borrowed) but do those work for balanced cables or does it only work for unbalanced? I don't remember if I used my balanced cables or not, its been a while.

In terms of my own experience ["theories"] and the balanced signal making a difference in sound, I noticed that when it was plugged into my mixer, the two left and right balanced signals get a sort of phasing or surround sound/stereo effect, whereas the two unbalanced cables were just flat (left and right), and I wasn't getting any phased surround-panning effect on the synths programmed to swirl around the speakers.

OR I could be completely mistaking this for some other reason... I've been really interested in what exactly does this. However, I am assuming that balanced cables support that surround sound ability? Any ideas on this as well?

[adrianww]

Originally Posted by jetam

You have no freaking idea what the term "balanced" means.
First check this.
Balanced audio - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Ouch - a tad harsh there perhaps. We all started out somewhere. Although you're right...

Originally Posted by jetam

When the TRS connector is used for a balanced connection, it can be only used for one channel - you need two of them for stereo. TRS connectors aren't very common for stereo except when used for headphones (unbalanced).

As the outputs are balanced, you can use a simple TRS to XLR cable.

To the OP - as it says above, a balanced TRS connection is a single channel, mono signal. If, as you said earlier, you seemed to be getting some kind of weird stereo/surround phasey sort of effect by using your own TRS cables then you've either wired your cables wrong or you'd plugged them into some kind of weird unbalanced stereo input on that mixer and it was playing the hot side of the balanced signal through one side of the stereo image and the cold side through the other.

Also as said above, all you need are correctly wired TRS to XLR cables (assuming the house wants everything on XLRs). Although you should also then let the sound guy know that he's getting line level signals on those channels, not mic level.

[jrbrugger]

Originally Posted by jetam

You have no freaking idea what the term "balanced" means.
First check this.
Balanced audio - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

When the TRS connector is used for a balanced connection, it can be only used for one channel - you need two of them for stereo. TRS connectors aren't very common for stereo except when used for headphones (unbalanced).

As the outputs are balanced, you can use a simple TRS to XLR cable.

Well I'm getting pretty good at learning things the hard way, so thanks for the correction. I'm also not that savy with hardware yet, getting there

Originally Posted by Hardtoe

Why 8 outs? A well mixed stereo out would be a lot simpler....

Well correct me if I'm wrong, but i prefer splitting the audio because it provides more flexibility. Sure it makes the sound guys' job easier that night, but if I precisely examine all the elements of this setup.. why would it not work? It removes some workload on the musicians' end and the sound engineer has more to work with.

this was my setup last August, and I found it to be the best way to perform it live given my lack of equipment.

I send 2 mono tracks (bass w/ sub-frequency and drums), and 3 stereo tracks from ableton to the house system(this consists of samples 120hz-22khz, and I collaborate certain tracks together based on how similar they are in frequency. I also have one channel that has my ableton receive FX loop channels). I can adjust the volume of each track via midi.. however because every room has a different sound, delegating a portion of the mix to the engineer is just a backup if something really went bad. He knows the venue better than I do, so why should I be a asshat and assume I can mix it better?

I tried controlling the complete mix myself through a mixer and it just didn't work out.. a) I couldn't hear the outer speakers well, b) the speakers were quite different than the one's I mix on, and c) I'm not experienced enough to fix something that technical of an endeavor on the fly while performing.

A problem I had was that I had way too much outgoing sound, and I should have minimized the amount of tracks / competing frequencies. This however was a straight up a flaw in the foundation. I'm also trying to consolidate my sound even further so I can rely on a few pieces of hardware controlled by a brain (ableton). This was going to be my next step. I have to invest in the equipment however, and the marginal cost of this expansion would be a lot higher than it was purchasing the necessities of the basic kit. So my plan is to really nail this digital system down with ableton, and then I can expand with other hardware devices... help me get to that point!

[ckreon]

Originally Posted by jrbrugger

Well correct me if I'm wrong, but i prefer splitting the audio because it provides more flexibility.

You are CORRECT - please keep splitting the audio!

I can't tell you how many sets are severely hampered by their terrible mixdown that I have no control over. Not only are the mixes often bad, I also work in some very "sensitive" rooms (aka they sound like shit), and any extra control you can give allows that much more refinement to better fit the room.

On the other hand, if the sound engineer is crappy, lazy, or otherwise incapable, a stereo mix might be better...

[Andy Hamm]

Originally Posted by ckreon

You are CORRECT - please keep splitting the audio!

I can't tell you how many sets are severely hampered by their terrible mixdown that I have no control over. Not only are the mixes often bad, I also work in some very "sensitive" rooms (aka they sound like shit), and any extra control you can give allows that much more refinement to better fit the room.

On the other hand, if the sound engineer is crappy, lazy, or otherwise incapable, a stereo mix might be better...

I'll second this, but keep it consistent - keep your bass line in one track, don't move it or double it up on another track. There is nothing worse that not knowing where a particular sound is coming from, especially if they are short little blurbs.

[jetam]

I'm sorry, I didn't want to sound that rude, just wanted to prevent you from doing stupid things and a bit of shock terapy always works.

And yes, sending multiple channels is usually a good idea.

About line level... most serious consoles have attenuators on inputs and can easily accept line level signals, but some, especially smaller ones, don't. In that case, you could use an inline attenuator, but it's usually easier to just use a DI box. If I had a choice, I'd always use a DI, because it also provides galvanic isolation/ground lift that can often solve problems with humming and can also protect your soundcard if the grounding is bad and the potentials between stage and FOH console are different (shouldn't be, but it happens quite often). I also recommend you to connect USB before you connect anything to your soundcard.

[Kaoz]

Originally Posted by Andy Hamm

I'll second this, but keep it consistent - keep your bass line in one track, don't move it or double it up on another track. There is nothing worse that not knowing where a particular sound is coming from, especially if they are short little blurbs.

Very much agreed.

Having individual splits makes an engineers job easier, not harder.

[shaneoconnor]

In my facility in Brooklyn we would be happy to accommodate 8 line level signals in any if our rooms.

It would make for a better foh mix and monitor mix.

[shaneoconnor]

Better low end management as well

[DubRuss]

most mixers I know of have line level ins on the back, but good luck getting a local soundguy to unplug part of his snake, use xlr to trs adapters, and plugging back into a different input on the board. If it's TRS, just get yourself a 8 TRS to 8 XLR snake, you can get a decent one for like 150 bucks(or you can make it yourself). If the soundguy cannot see the his mic pre's are clipping, then he's not worth much as a soundman. I know that the StudioLive has a little U on the mic gains to show were unity line level is. If you're a musician, I wouldn't freak out too badly over the TS, TRS, XLR, Line Level, Mic Level stuff. The important thing is to try to make it easy on the soundguy. Give him the tools he's not going to think about bringing to a show, and most importantly, rock the house.

8 outputs means 4 stereo (let's call them) Groups. I would group the outputs this way. 1/2 Drums, 3/4 syths, 5/6 any tracked vocals, 7 should be just bass parts in mono and 8 can be your click, if you use one.

[jrbrugger]

Originally Posted by DubRuss

[...] and 8 can be your click, if you use one.

What do you mean by click.. a metronome?

[Hardtoe]

I suggest stereo because I performed with Ableton live for years with a partner and we would mix two computers down to a stereo pair (before the laptop thing happened, I would submix, drum machines, samplers, synths, etc)

I also know how to balance a mix to begin with - I guess it depends if you have exactly what you want as a stereo mixdown (more like a dj) or if you gonna be needing some help in the sound front from the FOH tech.

A simpler setup makes for less possible tech issues, but it's true that there is also less control on the soundman's end (which only really matters when the artist is delivering a bad balance).

I would have your own rack DI your take gig if you want 8 channels though - it will save your ass at somepoint....

[jrbrugger]

Okay which purchase would be the best in terms of transmitting higher sound quality:

1) Buying 8 $30 DI Boxes for each of my outputs coming from my audio interface

2) Or using 8 TRS to XLR cables (high quality cables) to plug into the house sound system's snake.

--------

Obviously the $100 dollar DI boxes would be better than both options, but I'm probably more willing to take a slightly less expensive option.

I've done a bit of extra reading and I'm pretty convinced that I need to get DI boxes.

Other questions:
What happens to the signal on the other side when it is a Line Level XLR? (If they have a line selector switch in this case)
How would it be processed differently than using a DI box? What would it sound like?

If I am using a Direct Box, which cable length would be better ->

1) longer cables going to the DI box and shorter cables going from the DI box to snake
or
2) shorter cables going to the DI box and longer cables going from the DI box to snake

[ckreon]

Originally Posted by jrbrugger

Okay which purchase would be the best in terms of transmitting higher sound quality:

1) Buying 8 $30 DI Boxes for each of my outputs coming from my audio interface

2) Or using 8 TRS to XLR cables (high quality cables) to plug into the house sound system's snake.

<snip>

Other questions:
What happens to the signal on the other side when it is a Line Level XLR? (If they have a line selector switch in this case)
How would it be processed differently than using a DI box? What would it sound like?

If I am using a Direct Box, which cable length would be better ->

1) longer cables going to the DI box and shorter cables going from the DI box to snake
or
2) shorter cables going to the DI box and longer cables going from the DI box to snake

Ideally you could go the DI route, but if you can't afford it right now, it won't hurt to just use the adapters. The only difference is a DI will change the resistance and level of the signal (in this case, lowering the line-level). I'm sure there are audible differences, but in a live situation, I'm willing to bet my paycheck you couldn't tell a difference between a TRS adapter and a $200 DI.

As for what happens on the other side - well if you go into the line inputs of a board, they are set up for a hotter incoming signal (like a laptop, electric keys, etc.). Sometimes the line input will bypass the pre-amp, but on most larger consoles this is NOT the case - it will simply bring the signal in at a much more reasonable level.

If you go into the XLR inputs, it is expecting a lower signal, so it is a more sensitive input, and it is always in line with the pre-amp for adjustment.

Realistically, the cable length either way won't be a problem, especially if you used balanced cables for both connections (XLR and TRS). However, you will most likely be using unbalanced 1/4" cables, and in that case, the better option is to keep the unbalanced chord length as short as possible, and make the longer run with the balanced cable (XLR). That's why you don't typically see unbalanced connections on high-end stage boxes, because the snake run is typically the longest run of the day, and EVERY signal goes down that - so if you are sending even a few unbalanced connections down that snake, they will likely be quite noisy by the time they hit the board. A balanced cable takes all noise buildup, flips the phase on the other side, and eliminates it.

[loujudson]

Originally Posted by ckreon

I'm willing to bet my paycheck you couldn't tell a difference between a TRS adapter and a $200 DI.

snip
If you go into the XLR inputs, it is expecting a lower signal, so it is a more sensitive input, and it is always in line with the pre-amp for adjustment.

A balanced cable takes all noise buildup, flips the phase on the other side, and eliminates it.

1. How much is your paycheck, and can you come to Berkeley for a test?
2. Not always! Good modern and some older consoles have line/mic switches
3. OP, look up CMRR for a better description..
Common-mode rejection ratio - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia is a bit complex, but saying it "flips the phase" is pretty misleading, though not wildly incorrect... Reduce, not eliminate.

[ckreon]

Originally Posted by loujudson

1. How much is your paycheck, and can you come to Berkeley for a test?
2. Not always! Good modern and some older consoles have line/mic switches
3. OP, look up CMRR for a better description..
Common-mode rejection ratio - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia is a bit complex, but saying it "flips the phase" is pretty misleading, though not wildly incorrect... Reduce, not eliminate.

1) It fluctuates, and I'm not far from Berkley.
2) My point was the XLR input will always be able to reach the pre-amp, whereas the line-input sometimes bypasses the pre.
3) Fair enough, was keeping it simple.

[loujudson]

:-) no problem, really...

L

[ckreon]

Originally Posted by loujudson

:-) no problem, really...

L

[jetam]

Originally Posted by ckreon

I'm sure there are audible differences, but in a live situation, I'm willing to bet my paycheck you couldn't tell a difference between a TRS adapter and a $200 DI.

The point of the DI in this situation is not to provide balanced connection and reduce distortion as it would be with unbalanced sources (bass, guitar etc.), but to galvanicaly separate electronics on the stage from electronics at FOH mainly to prevent ground loops/hum and simmilar problems.
They can happen in many situations and of course hum is audiable so you could tell the difference and give me your pay check.

Actually an isolation transformer would be better than DI.

About line inputs and preamps... most serious consoles have a line/pad switch which brings the mic input to line level, but I can't think of any console that would actually bypass the preamp circuit. It makes no sense, you still need a buffer amp in the console and usually the mic preamp with the PAD engaged works perfectly as a line buffer.

[ckreon]

Originally Posted by jetam

About line inputs and preamps... most serious consoles have a line/pad switch which brings the mic input to line level, but I can't think of any console that would actually bypass the preamp circuit. It makes no sense, you still need a buffer amp in the console and usually the mic preamp with the PAD engaged works perfectly as a line buffer.

StudioLive bypasses the preamp on the line ins.

[jetam]

Originally Posted by ckreon

StudioLive bypasses the preamp on the line ins.

Really? So the inserts don't work on the line ins or they have their separate line amps? How do you know that?

It seems quite pointless to me.