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Schoeps cmc5 vs cmc6
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Led
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2nd December 2012
Old 2nd December 2012
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Schoeps cmc5 vs cmc6

Not so much a versus thread, but I've had a cmc5 with an MK4 cap for years and was thinking about having a pair to use for some smaller recording, quartets etc. maybe the odd choir. Are the cmc6's that different? Could I get away with using one 5 and one 6 with the same caps or should I hunt for another 5, or maybe sell my 5 and get a pair of 6's? Just after some opinions from anyone who's used both. I mainly do studio recording but it would be handy to have a pair to use on the odd location.
Thanks
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2nd December 2012
Old 2nd December 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Led View Post
Not so much a versus thread, but I've had a cmc5 with an MK4 cap for years and was thinking about having a pair to use for some smaller recording, quartets etc. maybe the odd choir. Are the cmc6's that different? Could I get away with using one 5 and one 6 with the same caps or should I hunt for another 5, or maybe sell my 5 and get a pair of 6's? Just after some opinions from anyone who's used both. I mainly do studio recording but it would be handy to have a pair to use on the odd location.
Thanks

CMC5 and CMC6 have essentially the same signal path, or active circuit if you may. Although as far as I know CMC5 has at least two versions of circuit, one with an extra coupling capacitor between the capsule and FET. CMC6 has the ability to automatically accommodate very wide supply phantom voltage, something like from 12-52V due to the usage of active voltage regulator circuit whereas in CMC5 one has to manually replace a voltage dropping resistor in the power supply circuit to achieve the same result. Technically, CMC6 and CMC5 should sound identical but they don’t. The reason is that the active regulator in CMC6 uses a particular comparator IC which I think was a mistake to use in that particular circuit because the comparator part of the circuit is oscillating where it shouldn’t. (Schoeps scratched out the part number on the part so I have no way of finding out what part they used) I tried different ICs when I discovered that problem and found that the problem could be easily solved and I disclosed my finding to Mr. Wuttek before his retirement from Schoeps in one of our personal meetings and he said he would investigate into it. I never heard back from Mr. Wuttek or Schoeps since that meeting and I didn’t want to spend my time fixing every one of my CMC6 bodies, and I had a lot of them, so I replaced all of them with CMC5s instead.

So, to answer your question, I will say Keep your CMC5 bodies, you will not get any better sound from CMC6s.


Best regards,

Da-Hong
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2nd December 2012
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I have purchased and continue to purchase only CMC5 bodies because of the simpler circuit and I always have only standards compliant 48V for the power supply. I have no need whatsoever to cater for other voltages, or require the low freq extension below 35Hz.
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2nd December 2012
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Thanks for the replies.
Cheers
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5th December 2012
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I also like to purchase the CMC5 because of its discrete circuit design. There is no chip in the #5 preamplifier.

It is humorous that in the Schoeps literature it is listed as "obsolete."
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5th December 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dseetoo View Post
Technically, CMC6 and CMC5 should sound identical but they don’t. The reason is that the active regulator in CMC6 uses a particular comparator IC which I think was a mistake to use in that particular circuit because the comparator part of the circuit is oscillating where it shouldn’t.

Da-Hong
Thank you for the information. I wasn't aware of how they achieved the voltage flexibility of the CMC6, and have never A/Bed them. What were you hearing in the 6 you did not like?
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6th December 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Plush View Post
I also like to purchase the CMC5 because of its discrete circuit design. There is no chip in the #5 preamplifier.

It is humorous that in the Schoeps literature it is listed as "obsolete."
Plush,

Have you experienced a difference in the sound between stock CMC5's and 6's

Thanks
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6th December 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by c1ferrari View Post
Plush,

Have you experienced a difference in the sound between stock CMC5's and 6's

Thanks
As I stated earlier, both CMC5 and CMC6 have essentially the same analog circuit, all discreet. Neither of them employed surface mount technology so by comparison, CMC6 circuit board is much more cramped than CMC5, I emphasize the word much. The power regulation circuit in CMC6 is more or less also discreet, except the usage of one IC chip as a comparator. The actual voltage regulation portion of the circuit is also discreet. As I mentioned earlier, the comparator IC in CMC6 is not implemented well and its output carries some oscillation, although it does not affect the voltage regulation it is still a form of noise, if you will. The noise is more measureable than audible, but it is audible, especially if you compare it to CMC5, both terminated with a dummy head. This was found more than 10 years ago, and I have stayed away from CMC6 since. Schopes may have made some changes to the CMC6 that I am not aware of as I have no examined a recent stock. The CMC6xt on the other hand, uses all surface mount parts.

BR,

Da-Hong
#9
7th December 2012
Old 7th December 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dseetoo View Post
The noise is more measureable than audible, but it is audible, especially if you compare it to CMC5, both terminated with a dummy head.

BR,

Da-Hong
Thank you for amplifying your earlier post. For clarification, are you characterizing the difference as noise and not distortion? Can you describe the noise, i.e., how would the noise manifest itself, sonically?

I'm employing the Gordon Model 5, here, with CMC65's.
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7th December 2012
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I have never heard any extra noise with the CMC6 bodies over the CMC5's.

It might be worth checking with Schoeps to see if anything changed over the last 10 years. I would be suprised if Schoeps wouldn't bring this to the attention of buyers if it there was a measurable noise difference. I always understood the CMC6 to be the more up to date option.
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7th December 2012
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Schoeps advises user not to mix CMC5 and CMC6 in a stereo pair for example.
And they try to get the people to buy the CMC6 with the argument of a better RF shielding and a higher price for the CMC5 after the price changes in september
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8th December 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RFrommann View Post
Schoeps advises user not to mix CMC5 and CMC6 in a stereo pair for example.
And they try to get the people to buy the CMC6 with the argument of a better RF shielding and a higher price for the CMC5 after the price changes in september
IS there less RF interference w/ the 6? I mean in practice. (I work in a very high-RF area.)

philp
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8th December 2012
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The noise difference between CMC5 and CMC6 is not huge, but it is there, easily identifiable if you test them with a dummy test head, by instrument or ear. Schoeps makes a dummy head which screws into the CMC bodies in the place of the cartridge for you to do all sort of tests to the bodies, bypassing any cartridge. It is especially useful for absolute noise level test. How audible of this noise difference is depends on a lot of things, such as the type of music, level of the music you are trying to record, as well as the mic preamp in your signal chain. For me, having firsthand knowledge that CMC5 is quieter is enough to empty all my CMC6 stocks.

Noise and distortion to me are the same thing; it is something I don’t want in my recordings.

Best regards,

Da-Hong
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8th December 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dseetoo View Post

Noise and distortion to me are the same thing; it is something I don’t want in my recordings.

Best regards,

Da-Hong
Indeed, Da-Hong.
It looks like I should pick up a pair and evaluate
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8th December 2012
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How about +5db modification? I've seen use many +5b Schoeps as spot microphone. Dynamic range not change, but they can help in "pianissimo" (quietly) musical passage? (Less preamp gain and less noise)
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27th January 2013
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If anyone wants to trade your CMC5s for CMC6s PM me. Doesn't matter if they are silver-- cosmetics really do not matter. I have a few pair of 6s with consequetive SRs for someone to whom that matters.

Rich
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24th November 2013
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raising up this thread cause need help me with vintage pair !

what about older CMC5 from '70 ?
i found a pair with external PSUs (1 for each mic) and would know how they compare with modern CMC5 !
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25th November 2013
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You should re-read the thread- this is covered.
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25th November 2013
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CMC5... there are older and newer, and here isn't covered at all !
the newer CMC5 work without external PSU, the older needs one, and i dont think it's the same design
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25th November 2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blackfinder View Post
CMC5... there are older and newer, and here isn't covered at all !
the newer CMC5 work without external PSU, the older needs one, and i dont think it's the same design
When Schoeps came out with the Colette modular series in the 70s, it included various cmc-X bodies for the different types of mic power that were used around Europe at that time. Cmc5 was the body that was powered by 48v phantom. So while a cmc3 or cmc4 body may need an external supply to give them the kind of power they were designed to accept, any cmc5, even the old cmc5, will work just fine when supplied with 48v phantom power.
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25th November 2013
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hi Kevin !

the pair of cmc5 i found are from 1976, and they do not have a XLR connector.
they are marked as "CMC5--D", which means have a tuchel type connector and can't connect them to a today's preamp with 48v phantom.

that's why i supposed they are different and require their own PSU.
some history here:

http://www.schoepsclassics.de/1973_colette.htm
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25th November 2013
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If it truly is a cmc5, it seems to me that your easiest option is to wire some tuchel to xlr-M adapter cables.
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25th November 2013
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yes Kevin, i got some pics and it's clearly marked as CMC5--D, already checked the serials at Schoeps and confirmed they come from 1976.

as you said in that time there are few models due to different country standards, and "D" stands for deutchland tuchel connector model...

Power Supply Overview:

CMC 3- 12V phantom power
CMC 3p 12V phantom power with reverse polarity (i.e. with the plus pole grounded)
CMC 4- 12V parallel feed (T-power)
CMC 4k 12V parallel feed (T-power) with reverse polarity for Nagra Kudelski consoles
CMC 5- 48V phantom power
CMC 6- 12V or 48V phantom power with automatic supply detection

All models could show further indices like "D" (for Tuchel connectors), "U" (for XLR connectors), "F" for the French Sogie connector, "R" for encreased common mode rejection ratio or "n" (for fixed 10dB attenuation). They could also be marked with a colored dot, blue for a +5dB amplification, white for compensation of proximiy effect, red for high frequency emphasis.

Connector Overview:

CMC -U XLR-3 connector with pin1 = GND, pin2 = + signal, pin 3 = - signal
CMC -D Tuchel-3 connector with pin1 = + signal, pin2 = GND, pin3 = - signal
CMC -F Sogie-7 connector (French market only) with pin H = + signal, pin D = - signal, pin C = B = GND
CMC -L Lemo-3 connector plus a constant current diode for P24 .. P48 powering (Austrian market only)
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25th November 2013
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Right, so buy a tuchel connector, an xlrm connector, some mic cable, and wire up an adapter cable according to what that website guide tells you. I'm sure it's a cmc5, as you say, which means that it still uses 48v phantom power. dig? And to answer your question from the first post, the fidelity between old and new should be very similar. The only difference between your CMC5D body and the modern CMC5U is the connector.
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25th November 2013
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cool, so just need an adapter or to make a cable following this scheme...

CMC -U XLR-3 connector with pin1 = GND, pin2 = + signal, pin 3 = - signal
CMC -D Tuchel-3 connector with pin1 = + signal, pin2 = GND, pin3 = - signal

do you own/used these mics Kevin ?
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25th November 2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blackfinder View Post
cool, so just need an adapter or to make a cable following this scheme...

CMC -U XLR-3 connector with pin1 = GND, pin2 = + signal, pin 3 = - signal
CMC -D Tuchel-3 connector with pin1 = + signal, pin2 = GND, pin3 = - signal

do you own/used these mics Kevin ?
At my old job we used 2 old pairs of cmc5u with mk21 capsules. The Schoeps I currently own are from the earlier generation.

The Schoeps I own are old ORTF CMMT models, have Sogie connectors, and use a small power converter wired with XLR connections to convert 48v phantom to the +12v power they run on. I use an adapter cable to convert from the Sogie connector to XLR.
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25th November 2013
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oh i see...
i wonder about differences in sound and electronics between CMC5 from early '70 models and latest from late '80 / early '90 ...
considering '92 is when the CMC6 came out and i suppose the CMC5 is not produced anymore.
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25th November 2013
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There's a good post on this thread where Da-hong Seetoo, DG Engineer/Producer extraordinaire, describes the differences he's observed between the two models.

The cmc5 body is still manufactured and available for purchase.
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25th November 2013
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do you have a link for that thread ?
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25th November 2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blackfinder View Post
do you have a link for that thread ?
It's at the very beginning of this thread that we're writing on.
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