More Wisdom from Mr. Kavi Alexander

[T.RayBullard]

I have contacted Kavi to invite him to the location forums, and though he declined to join in, he offered me the following info regarding reference recordings of the Classical/Carnatic Genres... I accepted most graciously. The man is one of the masters of this craft.


for the benefit of all who are interested
(used with permission)

"When it comes to recordings of the non Western classical traditions, I think David. B. Jones has to ranked at the very top. He is the one who did the Connoisseur Society (their technical "guru" was Bela Bartok's son Peter!) recordings of Ustad Ali Akbar Khan, the greatest living Indian musician. Jones also did some of the Nonesuch recordings as well (the really good ones) employing the same Sony tube mikes he used to record Dr. Khan. Check out the Ramnad Krishnan title on Nonesuch.

There are also many, many Indian EMI recordings that are truly superlative. Mostly it was the vinyl that was dismal (even this, they got it right at times!), but the recordings themselves, mostly were good and sometimes outstanding. Simple mike techniques and tube electronics did the trick. I have a Malika Arjun Mansoor recording that is at the top of the list. So is the M.S. Subbulakshmi boxed set of LPs recorded "live" at a UN gala for UThant. In spite of the most embarrassing and hideously ugly song in English (!) by Indial politician Rajaji, these LPs capture the queen in all her glory. Then, there are the many Yugal Bandi recordings. The first one is of course the original Bismillah Khan/Vilayat Khan pairing. This great recording was produced by Suviraj Grubb, the only Indian to ever produce Western classical recordings. He replaced Walter Legge at EMI as the principal producer and worked with all the greats, from Barenboim, Zukerman, Perlman and Du Pre to Barbirolli, Richter, Fischer-Dieskau and Klemperer. I must also mention the V.G. Jog and Bismillah pairing which is also great. The recording of Lalgudi Jayaraman and N. Ramani titled "Violin, Venu, Veena" also tops the list. Some good recordings were also released on the Swedish label Amigo (two of Nikil Banerjee and one each of Amjad Ali Khan and Ram
Narayan) while Sonet put out the most beautiful yugal bandi recording with Shivkumar and Hariprasad.

The German label Loft, among other titles, released an excellent double LP of the junior Dagar Brothers, and the French label Still, which along with a surbahar recording of Imrat Khan, has released the only recordings (two LP boxed sets) worth having, of the Karnatic legend T.R. Mahalingam. The other two recordings of Mali, on Indian EMI, are truly horrid. Taking of French labels, two outstanding recordings of Zia Mohinudinn Dager (Rudra vina) on Alvares and Auvidis respectively. The later also released a good recording of the junior Dagar Brothers. Another label called ESP put out ten or so recordings, of which there is a Hari Prasad that is wonderful, as is the one of Fariduddin Dagar (vocalist brother of Zia). Their recording of the Bauls, though of a lesser crew than the Purnadas (the very same man on the cover of Dylan's "John Wesly Harding" album) outfit on Nonesuch, Electra and Buddah, sonically is the best. Barclay (a jazz label started by the beautiful Nicole Barclay) too, released two recordings of Nagaswara Rao (vina), the same artist on Nonesuch, as did French CBS, a recording of Emani Shankar Shastry. Another French woman started Shandar that released a great recording of Pandit Pran Nath, as well as Terry Reily's "Persian Surgery Dervishes". Arion released a very good recording of D.K. Pattamal, while Vogue has an outstanding recording of Parapancham Sita Ram (Karnatic flute) with Guruvayur Dorai on mirdangam.

Chante du Monde has a very fine collection of Flamenco with great masters such as Pepe de la Metrona, with equally great sound. Andre Charlin made not just great speakers (electrostatic/dynamic hybrids) and amps (tube and solid state) but also truly great recordings, though most of them were of Western Classical music. He did however do a Koto (like Cook) recording for Kenwood (yes, the ones who made one of the greatest turntables, the LO7D). I have a feeling that Charlin was responsible (or at least partly) for the ORTF technique. Having mentioned France, I certainly must mention the great Indologist Alain Danielou, who edited the wonderful UNESCO collection of recordings. Though the sound on many of these is rather poor, having been done by some "ethnomusicologist" with a cassette recorder and mikes with wind screens, two recordings do stand out. They are the LP of the Dagar Brothers (Sr) and a Karnatic compilation with vocal tracks by Semanguddi Srinivasa Iyar. Though these recordings are in mono, the sound and performance are out of this world!
Danielou introduced the Dager Brothers to the West in the early 60s. I have heard that Nadia Boulanger, the great Parisian music teacher, after hearing the Dagar Brothers remarked "This is real music! We have been wasting our time!".

Last but not least, there is the French Ocora catalog, a treasure to ransom a king, with many, many outstanding recordings of the most exotic music. Check out the Munir Bashir (Oud) recording or the Emani Shankar Shastry (vina) recording with Madras Kannan on mirdangam! I also have a Portuguese EMI recording of Amilia Rodriguez that is outstanding.

From the UK, Tangent had a steady out put including a collection of music from Ethiopia, as well the "Music from the World of Islam" boxed set. But, Tangent never had truly great sound. Speaking of UK, I must mention the Hannibal recording of Nazakat and Salamat Ali, which is good. Another forgotten hero is Ron Marlo of Chess. Listen to the Muddy Waters "Folk Singer" LP and the "live" Ahmed Jamal LP titled "Alhambra". Emory Cook is another great who has also been forgotten. Way back in the 50s, he was releasing recordings of the Tarahumara Indian (the very ones Antonin Artaud "visited") peyote chants, as well as Hindu temple music from the Caribbean!!! Richard Bock of World Pacific also released great recordings; one in particular is the "live" recording of Vina Vidwan S. Balachander with N. Ramani. So is the recording of Brij Bhushan Kabra.

Jones, Malo, Cook, Bock, Danielou and Grubb, these are the men that I respect and hold in high esteem. They wrote the ground rules and charted the way and made it possible for the likes of me. The rest, including myself, are like the blind men with the elephant in a dark room! Groping in the dark, stumbling into mike stands, tripping over cables, spilling hot tea onto the tapes... and splitting hairs over the purity of the copper (or silver!) in the mike cables or the brand of tubes used!

The little I know, I learnt from listening to the recordings listed above and following carefully the works of the masters mentioned, who were my inspiration. To them I offer my gratitude.

Kavi Alexander... "

[d_fu]

Hi,

Originally Posted by T.RayBullard

I have contacted Kavi to invite him to the location forums, and though he declined to join in, he offered me the following info regarding reference recordings of the Classical/Carnatic Genres... I accepted most graciously. The man is one of the masters of this craft.

Most interesting. Thanks for posting this.

Further quotes by Mr. Alexander.

There are also many, many Indian EMI recordings that are truly superlative. Mostly it was the vinyl that was dismal (even this,they got it right at times!), but the recordings themselves, mostly were good and sometimes outstanding. Simple mike techniques and tube electronics did the trick.

Very true. Nikhil Banerjee's Jaunpuri/Mand LP (originally EASD 1378) is an excellent example, esp. the Tabla sound. I believe it's available on CD, but I don't know how well it's been transferred. I'd really like to know what mikes were used for that.

I have a Malika Arjun Mansoor recording that is at the top of the list.

I wonder which one he's referring to.

Some good recordings were also released on the Swedish label Amigo (two of Nikil Banerjee and one each of Amjad Ali Khan and Ram Narayan)

The Nikhil Banerjee and Amjad Ali Khan recordings are now available on CD on the Audiorec label (http://www.audiorec.co.uk). I wouldn't rate the (live) Nikhil Banerjee recordings so highly in technical terms, but the Amjad Ali Khan recording sounds very good. (it was also released by Sonodisc).

The German label Loft, amoung other titles, released an excellent double lp of the junior Dagar Brothers

IIRC, a fairly reverberant live recording from a church. Suits the music, though. Another one worth mentioning is a solo recording (absolutely solo, not even a Tanpura) of Hariprasad Chaurasia's flute. Shame that none of these have been released on CD.

The little I know, I learnt from listening to the recordings listed above and following carefully the works of the masters mentioned, who were my inspiration. To them I offer my gratitude.

Kavi Alexander.. "

What I find interesting is that the sound ideal of the (admittedly few) WLA Indian Music recordings I've heard seems to be quite different from the ones quoted above, all or most of which I believe to be multi-microphone close-miked setups, as opposed to the purist Blumlein setup used in WLA recordings. As far as my personal taste is concerned, one-point stereo techniques are not ideal for repertoire like Indian Classical Music. Earlier Nimbus recordings are good examples of what IMHO Indian Music should not sound like. I personally find close miking distinctly more suitable to this music in principle (even though there is also a good deal of potential for bad sound quality, of course...) and most of the recordings mentioned by Kavi Alexander follow this ideal (Nonesuch, EMI etc.). But that's just my opinion and this may not be the place to discuss it. In case anyone still wishes to do so, let me know.

Daniel

[audiothings]

What I find interesting is that the sound ideal of the (admittedly few) WLA Indian Music recordings I've heard seems to be quite different from the ones quoted above, all or most of which I believe to be multi-microphone close-miked setups, as opposed to the purist Blumlein setup used in WLA recordings. As far as my personal taste is concerned, one-point stereo techniques are not ideal for repertoire like Indian Classical Music.

daniel... your post makes me happy and sad at the same time. Happy... that my guess was probably correct... and sad that my guess was probably correct. The WLA sound is the sound i want for my work... unfortunately i don't think the approach will be appropriate for my work (recording carnatic vocal music).

there is an ongoing discussion (though some of it is most regretable... you'll know what i mean if you go there over at the acoustic music forum at recording.org, and we are hoping that kavi will come forward with some tips. Please join us there and share your experience.

btw, did you have anything to do with the chanda dhara recording of chitraveena ravikiran and vellore ramabhadran? Can you please reveal a little about your experience with recording indian music?

thanks,

audiothings.

[Ruphus]

Without a clue about the specifics mentioned by you knowledged guys, met still has a rough idea about the broadly undiscovered jewels out there.

It was at the early times of the discounter "Saturn" ( when it was a pure venyl shop, belonging to the founder still, who organized the most versatile record shop ever seen in Germany ) when I discovered what beautiful ethno works exist out there.

So, what I´d like to say is this:

I think it could be a worthwhile project if insiders like you were to put out compilation CDs of the most taking and / or best sounding ethno recordings.

I am convinced that it could become a huge success and contribute considerably to draw attention to the treasures out there and help the common taste to get away from the largely poor, monotonous and repetitive fashion of hiphop and techno solitude of almost 30 years now.

Not only could it open a nice income source for you and enable some royalty for the original artists, but it might be inspirational to the consumer and enlightning to the producers, fueling against the tiresome drain that has come over the western hemisphere with looping fatuity.

Your overlook could be not only worth some cash, but much more even result into a cultural reanimation.

Ruphus

PS: What remarkable fusion is concerned, I totally digged the group Triatma back then.
Have you heard of them?

[d_fu]

Originally Posted by audiothings

daniel... your post makes me happy and sad at the same time. Happy... that my guess was probably correct... and sad that my guess was probably correct. The WLA sound is the sound i want for my work... unfortunately i don't think the approach will be appropriate for my work (recording carnatic vocal music).

How so...? If you like the sound, then why not go for the approach?

there is an ongoing discussion (though some of it is most regretable... you'll know what i mean if you go there over at the acoustic music forum at recording.org, and we are hoping that kavi will come forward with some tips. Please join us there and share your experience.

A good deal of his recording philosophy is on his website. While I respect it (and all the work he's done), my ears don't agree... I've only listened to a few of his recordings and only have one or two, but what I remember of it was not my sound ideal for Indian Music...Esp. concerning the sound of percussion instruments. Might chime in over at recording.org

btw, did you have anything to do with the chanda dhara recording of chitraveena ravikiran and vellore ramabhadran?

No. That's the second one of the Chhanda Dhara recordings of Ravikiran, is it? I recall that the mridangam is a bit subdued, but the Gottuvadyam sounds excellent.

Can you please reveal a little about your experience with recording indian music?

Almost 20 years of partly private, partly commercial work with Indian Music, including a small label of my own...

Daniel

[bit mangler]

Thanks Teddy for sharing this information-that was really great.Audiothings-thanks for the linky to the other discussion-I assume that you were the OP of that thread becuase I remember that the same question was asked in GS.

When I was in India(some years back) I had an opportunity to listen to MS. Sub and Chitti Babu on the Veena.Babu's was a phenomenal performance.Looking forward to more discussions on this subject.

[audiothings]

How so...? If you like the sound, then why not go for the approach?

most western classical music comes from a time when there was no amplification... hence there is always the natural acoustic balance that the composer intended. As for carnatic music, though the compositions may be old, the presentation has changed significantly over the last 100 years... if the musicians are extremely careful they can control the balance acoustically, but they rarely perform unamplified concerts anymore... most mridangam players are too used to vocal levels being set by the mixing console fader and usually are banging away at a much louder acoustic level than the vocalist.

secondly, one head of the mridangam is, as you know pointing in the opposite direction to the audience (presumably where a coincident setup can be placed)... so with a single pair, you are getting no direct sound from that head, unless you alter the natural, comfortable playing position.

lastly, the vocalist is constantly rocking about in all axes... necessating a spot mic for himself to retain stability in the stereo field.

No. That's the second one of the Chhanda Dhara recordings of Ravikiran, is it? I recall that the mridangam is a bit subdued, but the Gottuvadyam sounds excellent.

i have heard only the second one and i personally think it sounds great and the balance imho is very good. My problem with it is the sound of the mridangam's right head... theres a sharp transient 'tick' sound which i find very distracting. It doesn't bother me when i am listening to a mridangam from a suitable distance, or listening to an old recording. I think close micing + digital accuracy (?) captures this rather too literally.

I think it could be a worthwhile project if insiders like you were to put out compilation CDs of the most taking and / or best sounding ethno recordings.

I am convinced that it could become a huge success and contribute considerably to draw attention to the treasures out there and help the common taste to get away from the largely poor, monotonous and repetitive fashion of hiphop and techno solitude of almost 30 years now.

i hope you are right about the possible success of indian classical music at an international level, as i am hoping to start a record label in the future... unfortunately in the current climate, i have serious doubts. Although it has its lighter side, carnatic music is by no means 'easy listening'... particularly to the untrained ear. As i understand, the bulk of today's listeners want to hear only things that will not challenge their attention or intelligence.

somehow the words "ethno music" conjure up images of naked tribals singing simplistic stuff and banging away on basic instruments (no offense intended to them...) I personally think that carnatic music is evolved to the point of being elitist... hence the missing audiences.

regards,

jai shankar.

[Ruphus]

Originally Posted by audiothings

i hope you are right about the possible success of indian classical music at an international level, as i am hoping to start a record label in the future... unfortunately in the current climate, i have serious doubts. Although it has its lighter side, carnatic music is by no means 'easy listening'... particularly to the untrained ear. As i understand, the bulk of today's listeners want to hear only things that will not challenge their attention or intelligence.

somehow the words "ethno music" conjure up images of naked tribals singing simplistic stuff and banging away on basic instruments (no offense intended to them...) I personally think that carnatic music is evolved to the point of being elitist... hence the missing audiences.

regards,

jai shankar.

I know what you mean.
That is why I suggested compilation CDs.
CDs with only the most catchy pieces from diverse artists and styles, selected stuff that rocks so to say and that can make consumers interested that are not used to too challenging compositions.

The compilation CDs then would ground the path for more interest into that direction.

Ruphus

[audiothings]

I know what you mean.
That is why I suggested compilation CDs.
CDs with only the most catchy pieces from diverse artists and styles, selected stuff that rocks so to say and that can make consumers interested that are not used to too challenging compositions.

The compilation CDs then would ground the path for more interest into that direction.

ah! now i get your drift great idea i think.

thanks,

[T.RayBullard]

Originally Posted by Ruphus

I know what you mean.
That is why I suggested compilation CDs.
CDs with only the most catchy pieces from diverse artists and styles, selected stuff that rocks so to say and that can make consumers interested that are not used to too challenging compositions.

The compilation CDs then would ground the path for more interest into that direction.

Ruphus

It is a very good idea, I agree. Something I am very interested in!

[ISedlacek]

Originally Posted by audiothings

most western classical music comes from a time when there was no amplification... hence there is always the natural acoustic balance that the composer intended. As for carnatic music, though the compositions may be old, the presentation has changed significantly over the last 100 years... if the musicians are extremely careful they can control the balance acoustically, but they rarely perform unamplified concerts anymore...

Yes, the microphone obsession in India is quite unfortunate thing. Even if people perform in 5x6 m room, they would definitely require microphones. Thus all the subtle and natural vibrations of music are gone and also the musicians slightly forget to create a real sound from their instruments/vocal and rely on microphones. But I would like to hear a sound of their instruments/vocal rather than some usually not so great PA systems.
For me it is the second worse thing which happened to Indian music. If you ask what it the most horrible thing for me - it is "Indian harmonium". Fortunately not that frequent in Carnatic music yet, but some years ago I once saw a Carnatic performance with harmonium Already Rabindranath Tagore said - "harmonium is the bane of Indian music". And he was right ... sorry for a slight OT.

[Ruphus]

Originally Posted by T.RayBullard

It is a very good idea, I agree. Something I am very interested in!

Just saying:

I´m approaching a new way of label / distribution. Things are far from being ready to go, but should I get it to run without any of you guys having started the compilation CD project yet I might get back to you for sort of a concertated action. [?]

If so your job might be compiling, clearing the royalities and whatnot conditions, me might swing print and distribution then.

But anyway, without me or whatever, doing this would be generally really good thing in pretty much all aspects, indeed.

Ruphus

[T.RayBullard]

I already have many ethnic recordings(mostly Turkish, Greek, and German Volks, and some Carnatic) ..a vast pool of resources..Heidelberg has a large mideastern population, so opportunities are endless. Ah, you are in Berlin, cool!

Teddy

Originally Posted by Ruphus

Just saying:

I´m approaching a new way of label / distribution. Things are far from being ready to go, but should I get it to run without any of you guys having started the compilation CD project yet I might get back to you for sort of a concertated action. [?]

If so your job might be compiling, clearing the royalities and whatnot conditions, me might swing print and distribution then.

But anyway, without me or whatever, doing this would be generally really good thing in pretty much all aspects, indeed.

Ruphus

[Ruphus]

Originally Posted by T.RayBullard

I already have many ethnic recordings(mostly Turkish, Greek, and German Volks, and some Carnatic) ..a vast pool of resources..Heidelberg has a large mideastern population, so opportunities are endless. Ah, you are in Berlin, cool!

Teddy

Not to hijack the thread, but a large mideastern population in Heidelberg!?
Is that new?

When I lived there I used to see very little foreigners aside from tourists and a handful GIs. And it didn´t appear too hospitable anyway. Even lesser on the country where I lived. The peeps there were like 40 years back in mentality, especially the middle aged ones ( with out of all the rockers being the nice guys ).

It was good to be fit when roaming Heidelberg on weekends, anyway.
( German South ain´t really my cup of tea anyway. ... Except of the foods aroma. hmmm [ The north being pretty aroma free, everything seems styrofoam with flavour enhancer. ])

Ruphus

[T.RayBullard]

Yes, there is a large Iranian/Turkish/Iraq population... And ample opportunity for recording. If you want help with Compilation, feel free to contact me.

Originally Posted by Ruphus

Not to hijack the thread, but a large mideastern population in Heidelberg!?
Is that new?

When I lived there I used to see very little foreigners aside from tourists and a handful GIs. And it didn´t appear too hospitable anyway. Even lesser on the country where I lived. The peeps there were like 40 years back in mentality, especially the middle aged ones ( with out of all the rockers being the nice guys ).

It was good to be fit when roaming Heidelberg on weekends, anyway.
( German South ain´t really my cup of tea anyway. ... Except of the foods aroma. hmmm [ The north being pretty aroma free, everything seems styrofoam with flavour enhancer. ])

Ruphus

[Ruphus]

Anwered your PM with a short discription of the biz plan.

Ruphus

[d_fu]

Originally Posted by Ruphus

The compilation CDs then would ground the path for more interest into that direction.

This idea is not new at all, and IMHO a tad naive... There is no real need these days to grind a path for "World Music"... Where have you been the past decades? You live right in Berlin, where they have the "House of World Cultures" (http://www.hkw.de/), the WOMEX took place there 10 or 12 years ago, there is "Radio Multikulti" (http://www.multikulti.de/), there are shops with a huge selection of international music (e.g. Dussmann). One of these, Canzone, closed several years ago, indicating that the market for "World Music" on the whole seems to be more on the decline than a booming business in recent years, not only as far as CDs are concerned, the same goes for the concert scene (all this applies to the traditional repertoire more than to Bhangra and such like, "fusion" music in general...).

I think that a compilation of catchy "World Music" pieces from India to South America is very Seventies... Not something that would really excite listerners today. It's simply not something new at all, it's all been done a long time ago. Also, Iraqi or turkish listeners don't usually have a lot of interest in e.g. Indian Classical music. They may like Bollywood stuff, but that market is already here (german TV has aired a good number of Bollywood movies recently - Shah Rukh Khan and Hrithik Roshan are household names here now...)

But maybe you have a failsafe business plan. I personally would not put my money into such a project (partly because I already have done so (no compilations, though), and I've seen a decline.

I'm also not very fond of reducing music to "selected stuff that rocks"... But that's just BTW.

Also BTW, I know Tri Atma, I even know the band's (german) Sitar player, Manfred Flathe. But the music was pretty terrible IMHO... Especially the Tabla player... Forgot his name.

Daniel

PS: Regarding "fusion", the great Veena master S. Balachander once said "No fusion, and no confusion" during a concert in Delhi... Just another "BTW", I'm personally not that orthodox..

[d_fu]

Originally Posted by audiothings

most western classical music comes from a time when there was no amplification... hence there is always the natural acoustic balance that the composer intended. As for carnatic music, though the compositions may be old, the presentation has changed significantly over the last 100 years... if the musicians are extremely careful they can control the balance acoustically, but they rarely perform unamplified concerts anymore... most mridangam players are too used to vocal levels being set by the mixing console fader and usually are banging away at a much louder acoustic level than the vocalist.

I'm sure you have a point there, but don't forget that this kind of music was never intended for huge concert halls. And the instruments simply don't project as much as western instruments do. While you can fill a concert auditorium with a violin, you simply cannot do so with a Veena or Sitar (and not with a Mridangam or Tabla, either). From a certain size of the hall, amplification is required, otherwise finer details will be lost. And it's certainly possible to use amplification sensitively, without huge volume...

lastly, the vocalist is constantly rocking about in all axes... necessating a spot mic for himself to retain stability in the stereo field.

Not only indian vocalists do so... Sigh..

i have heard only the second one and i personally think it sounds great and the balance imho is very good. My problem with it is the sound of the mridangam's right head... theres a sharp transient 'tick' sound which i find very distracting. It doesn't bother me when i am listening to a mridangam from a suitable distance, or listening to an old recording. I think close micing + digital accuracy (?) captures this rather too literally.

Possibly. I haven't heard the CD in a long time. This may also be a matter of the choice of microphone.

i hope you are right about the possible success of indian classical music at an international level, as i am hoping to start a record label in the future... unfortunately in the current climate, i have serious doubts. Although it has its lighter side, carnatic music is by no means 'easy listening'... particularly to the untrained ear. As i understand, the bulk of today's listeners want to hear only things that will not challenge their attention or intelligence.

Just what I was thinking... The "success of indian classical music at an international level" is a thing of the past, not of the future, I believe. There will always be a certain market for it, but the boom is over...

Daniel

[Ruphus]

Originally Posted by d_fu

...

We are looking down a bit, don´t we.

Congratulations to your wisdom, but I was talking about something different concerning concept and expectations.

Also whether compilations could be potentially succesful would have a lot to do with taste of the people compiling the CDs, and I think we might differ on that to start with.

( Not to say that all Triatma albums were good, the one ( or two maybe ) that I came accross however was nice.)

Ruphus

[T.RayBullard]

Originally Posted by d_fu

This idea is not new at all, and IMHO [snip]

Your comments have a way of coming off incredibly arrogant and brash.

I admire your desire to post your opinions, but it sounds like you take your own opinions a bit too seriously.. How about taking a step back, really thinking before you post, and try to come off a little bit less like a ...well you get the picture. Same here as the other thread...
(but that is just me, BTW)


If you are good at what you do, have a good business sense, and are likeable, people will buy the product. Music is always welcome.



(but that is just me, BTW)

[d_fu]

Originally Posted by Ruphus

We are looking down a bit, don´t we.

Nothing personal. Call it a healthy cynicism from years of experience with the Indian Music scene...

Congratulations to your wisdom, but I was talking about something different concerning concept and expectations.

Your idea was to "to put out compilation CDs of the most taking and / or best sounding ethno recordings". And this is really not new at all, and the idea that this would have any novelty value and become an immediate commercial success is (I will repeat that) a bit naive. You will find out. You can not deny the fact that things llike that have been done before, many times and many years ago. Are you aware of any of that? I'm not sure. Tell me if I'm wrong.

Also whether compilations could be potentially succesful would have a lot to do with taste of the people compiling the CDs, and I think we might differ on that to start with.

It's not only a matter of personal taste. But I guess you want to make your own mistakes...

Daniel

[T.RayBullard]

Originally Posted by d_fu

It's not only a matter of personal taste. But I guess you want to make your own mistakes...
[snip]
Daniel

Have you considered that your business model wasnt good or that, simply put, people did not like your product /skills enough for you to be as much of a success as you wanted??

There are NO absolutes. No matter how much success you have or havent had, you cannot go around stating what will or will not work with any authority. You can say "this didnt work for me" but you cant say "this wont work for you"...THAT is naive.

[d_fu]

Originally Posted by T.RayBullard

Your comments have a way of coming off incredibly arrogant and brash.

Sorry if that is your impression. But then, I'm simply stating a fact ("World Music" samplers aren't new) and a personal opinion.

I admire your desire to post your opinions,

Wow, what a diplomatic insult... But don't you post your opinions, either?

but it sounds like you take your own opinions a bit too seriously..

I don't understand that. Why should I not take my opinions seriously? Don't you do so? If you disagree with someone else's opinion, won't you say so? I am well aware of the fact that they are opinions, I don't claim to tell the gospel truth... And this is a discussion forum, is it not? Not a place where we must all agree.

How about taking a step back, really thinking before you post, and try to come off a little bit less like a ...well you get the picture. Same here as the other thread..

Which I've edited partly and apologized for. And I'm waiting for a reaction from you. At least I don't personally insult people the way you do.
I did think about this reply for a while. You will observe that I did not reply to Ruphus' first posting, although my ideas were the same. It may not be what Ruphus wanted to hear, but these things happen. If he can't live with a word of warning and skepticism, that's fine by me.

If you are good at what you do, have a good business sense, and are likeable, people will buy the product. Music is always welcome.

Now that is a very idealistic view of the world...
What I'm saying is not only personal opinion, it comes from experience. Esp. in "World" and Indian Music, what sells is not always good, and what's good will not always sell (Remember Beta vs. VHS?). Here's a quote from Kavi Alexander that goes in the same direction (from his posting on recording.org): "As the "audiophiles", the only ones who buy LPs, did not care for the music I offered, I stopped LP production." I'm sure Kavi is likeable, good at what he does, and has a good business sense... Yet some people did not buy the product, and the music was not always welcome...

I'm not trying to say that Ruphus' idea was per se bad or stupid. I'm just putting in a word of caution. He seemed to really be under the impression that he'd just invented something new, something the world is waiting for...

Daniel

[d_fu]

Originally Posted by T.RayBullard

Have you considered that your business model wasnt good or that, simply put, people did not like your product /skills enough for you to be as much of a success as you wanted??

This wasn't about me. Things are not that simple. The people who ran the Canzone world music shop would also tell you that. The products were good and the people were very likeable, yet when the economy is bad, buyers simply spend less money for products like these. Food comes before culture. There are many factors as to why even the best Indian Music CDs will not sell as well today as they may have done in the Nineties. I doubt that you have any specific experience in this field, or do you? And are you saying that anyone who fails with a business venture (which is not what happened to me) are themselves to blame, because they and their products just weren't good enough? Strange idea.

There are NO absolutes. No matter how much success you have or havent had, you cannot go around stating what will or will not work with any authority. You can say "this didnt work for me" but you cant say "this wont work for you"...THAT is naive.

I never said anything of the kind, you are just misinterpreting me. I merely stated that it's all been done before and that there is no need to create a market for World Music, and also that this may not be an ideal time for idealistic projects of this kind. If you can make it work, fine. Please allow me to be skeptical.


Daniel

[Ruphus]

Hey guys, don´t take it all too serious, please.

D_fu,

Your idea was to "to put out compilation CDs of the most taking and / or best sounding ethno recordings". And this is really not new at all

To your understanding.

Yes I have been around the past decades and eventhough not celebrating the past over 20 years too much, sure noticed the different fashion directions from folk, over reggae, to oriental, latin you name it.

Still it hadn´t much to do with what I´m thinking of.
Back in my Saturn days I discovered taking African or Gregorian choirs and stuff like that, of whichs quality there has been seen fairly little yet on the western mainstream shelve.

I think there is huge potential.

Didn´t even think of digging all the teasures up, but if I heard someone doing it well and if I had the means to contribute in the future I would be interested in doing so.

And you know, even if your estimation was correct, the project would yet be more useful than taking one kick beat out of the common rap pattern, giving it a new sub-genre name and releasing the next ever same monotony again.

I believe that there are vastly unheard jewels out there.
Great sounding stuff that you don´t need to be specialized into to find it appealing.

A really good selection could fire something up, - and maybe fuel following fusion.

Besides of the fact that I found pretty much the most under the term "fusion" to have been lame stuff.
I am fond of the fusion idea since long before the term came up as fashion, and I believe that there hasn´t been done entirely justice to its potential yet.

I´m not thinking of some typical traditional lines over some drum machine. I mean really thoughtout musician merge of whatever ethno with mainly rock.

Oh man, that hasn´t really happened yet on a considerable public scale.

Ruphus

[d_fu]

Hi,

Originally Posted by Ruphus

Hey guys, don´t take it all too serious, please.

T.Ray likes to take things seriously that have nothing to do with him... His headache, not mine.

Still it hadn´t much to do with what I´m thinking of.
Back in my Saturn days I discovered taking African or Gregorian choirs and stuff like that, of whichs quality there has been seen fairly little yet on the western mainstream shelve.

"Ethnic" music will alway be in the "Ethnic" shelves...

I think there is huge potential.

I honestly don't see that... Care to elaborate? What indicates such a potential to you?

And you know, even if your estimation was correct, the project would yet be more useful than taking one kick beat out of the common rap pattern, giving it a new sub-genre name and releasing the next ever same monotony again.

No doubt..

I believe that there are vastly unheard jewels out there.
Great sounding stuff that you don´t need to be specialized into to find it appealing.

That's where I beg to differ... I really believe there's hardly a place in the world with music that hasn't been (commercially) "discovered" - from the Capverde Islands to Mongolia, you name it. First, ethnomusicologists, then "World Music" producers... Have a glance at the Womex website and you'll see what I mean (http://www.womex.com/).

A really good selection could fire something up, - and maybe fuel following fusion.
Besides of the fact that I found pretty much the most under the term "fusion" to have been lame stuff.
I am fond of the fusion idea since long before the term came up as fashion, and I believe that there hasn´t been done entirely justice to its potential yet.

How is your ideal of fusion music different from what's happeining all around these days? I honestly wonder, this is not a personal attack (as a certain individual seems to have assumed)..

I´m not thinking of some typical traditional lines over some drum machine. I mean really thoughtout musician merge of whatever ethno with mainly rock.

I personally don't see much musical value there (for neither of the two), but that's just my view... But again, the question arises, hasn't a lot of this been done...? Need I mention The Beatles?

Oh man, that hasn´t really happened yet on a considerable public scale.

I would say it has and still is happening... For better or for worse.

Daniel

[audiothings]

PS: Regarding "fusion", the great Veena master S. Balachander once said "No fusion, and no confusion" during a concert in Delhi... Just another "BTW", I'm personally not that orthodox..

well... i'm not orthodox either... i into everything from gg allin to bill frissell to bjork. But i am strongly against what is being called as 'fusion music' in india. I don't even mind bubblegum pop as much as i do this so called fusion. Not to suggest that there is no scope for collaboration of musicians from different cultures... but i don't want to go down that road at this time.

The "success of indian classical music at an international level" is a thing of the past, not of the future, I believe. There will always be a certain market for it, but the boom is over...

daniel i genuinely appreciate your cynicism... and i am scared to think you may be right. you seem to be talking from experience. Sorry for the OT, but what hope is there anywhere in the world, for non 'pop' music to be financially viable, if it is not sponsored by the state or 'preservation of culture' type organisations? Can you point me in the direction of some success stories? i ask this out of total ignorance. I see too many small specialist labels pulling their shutters down (i don't mean 'indie' labels of course).

thanks,

[d_fu]

Originally Posted by audiothings

daniel i genuinely appreciate your cynicism...

Thanks

and i am scared to think you may be right. you seem to be talking from experience. Sorry for the OT, but what hope is there anywhere in the world, for non 'pop' music to be financially viable, if it is not sponsored by the state or 'preservation of culture' type organisations?

Very little, if at all, I would say. On a small scale, maybe, as in one-man companies, but nothing to create new employment... The Western Classical Music market is no better these days, many of the big companies have more or less stopped releasing/recording (e.g. Sony). Some small specialized ventures survive, and labels with low-price CDs like Naxos (if you've heard of them), but in general, the market for "classical" music isn't booming, either, apart from certain mass-market travesties like the Three Tenors or Andrea Boccelli or even André Rieu - consider yourself lucky if haven't heard of them. They are the Jayalalithas of Western Classical Music, if you know what I mean...

Can you point me in the direction of some success stories? i ask this out of total ignorance. I see too many small specialist labels pulling their shutters down

Labels in India? Which ones are you referring to? When it comes to Indian Music, Navras is certainly a success story, but they have financial backing (private funds). John Wiltton of Raga Records or Lyle Wachovsky of IAM (both NY) staunchly continue to relase recording, but both are entirely one-man enterprises, and both have other jobs for regular income... Sense World Music seem to be doing well in the UK, but there is a market there, of course, and I believe that there are only a few people involved.

Where do you release your recordings, do you work for a certain label?


Daniel

[audiothings]

Where do you release your recordings, do you work for a certain label?

i have recorded and mixed all the live albums of rajalakshmi audio, about 20+ released works and several yet unreleased works. I will be recording about 10 more concerts during their 'september season', a parallel to chennai's december season, which the owner is trying to promote in coimbatore. i heartily discourage you from buying any of the cds. Two weeks ago i recorded 3 concerts for new company called 'aananda foundation' - bombay jaishri, t.m.krishna and the violin trio of vv subramaniam, vv ravi and vvs murari (vv subramaniam is one of the last violinists from the old times who is still able to perform, and the other two are the current top performanig artistes. The miidangam players were guruvayur dorai, tv gopalakrishnan and j vaidyanathan, names that may be familiar to you). Don't know how they plan to release. I record to alesis hd24 through various dynamic mics (except a neumann kms105 for the main artiste) and a midas venice live console. Apart from this i have recorded several concerts commisioned by individuals and i don't know where they've ended up.

its ironic that i should be sitting here in india and asking you this... but can you tell me anything about 'navras'. Most of their contemporary carnatic titles were recorded and are still sold by 'charsur digital workstation' (who have made some of the most hideous carnatic recordings) which are attributed to 'music today' on their (the navras) website... And 2 days ago i bought a compilation cd of hindustani music released here by sony, but licensed from navras. So how does it work? Charsur licenses to music today, who in turn allow navras to release it in the UK? And navras has a tie up with sony for distribution within india? And why are the cds priced at bloody 3£? who can break even on that?

[Ruphus]

"Ethnic" music will alway be in the "Ethnic" shelves...

Ethnic, yes, but the selection depends on the judge of the buying agent. And there I think lies the culprit. Too many of those with too little taste.

How is your ideal of fusion music different from what's happeining all around these days?

In quality.
Here you gave a good answer yourself:

Need I mention The Beatles?

However, quality productions like theirs make the smallest fraction of the so called fusion section seen in the west, beside the fact that the Beatles don´t belong to the later production batch considered "fusion" anyway.

Unlike you I see a lot of potential, provided capable musianship. One of my favourite thoughts for instance is Spanish guitar with rock.
For this configuration for instance there has been only very little good production yet from what I know. There have been very few good pop productions with it and one disco song with a really beautiful integration ( Santa Esmeralda "Don´t let me be misunderstood" ) and even fewer rock examples ( remember that awful Jeff Beck / Sabicas intermezzo ... )
I´ve heard a few Spanish productions that weren´t too bad, but there´s still much left to be written. It´s not easy to merge something like flamenco with rock, but it can be done and if done well it should give beautiful results.

Similarly about those traditional choirs and chantings. There have been some more or less good trials with whatdoiknow ... Sting or Paul Simon, but hey that´s only been a particle of the compositional options.

The majority after that, which was called "fusion" was just some ridiculous plastic stuff, not even worth mentioning. Actually I hated it when that became fashion, wasting the term "fusion".



Whereas, what you find in the original countries as a cultural merge largely residing on the opposite side of the intuitive scale.

I don't even mind bubblegum pop as much as i do this so called fusion.

Merely copying of western mainstream with local lyrics. As you can read in other threads I can´t stand that kind of trash stuff.

Ruphus