Recording harp in a small room

[sedohr]

Ok guys.

I´m having a harpist over tomorrow. I´m going to record the harp in a rather small room but not entirely dead, sounds ok. I have a stereo pair of m-300 gefells and a Pacifica. I am doing a pop album which reaches into both the acoustic world and the electro world. In most songs there are more instruments, drums and stuff. So the harp sound should be more close than ambient (just as well since my recording hall isn´t that big )

Have you a secret tip regarding the location of the mics for me ?

I´ve produced 2 albums where harp was the main instrument with the vocal but I didn't engineer them myself. They had more classical feel to them, though.

Kalli

[pkautzsch]

I'd probably go for one or two mics to the body where most of the sound comes from, and maybe another one for some finger picking noise. Not too close, but not too far away. 2 ft might be a point to start.
Somewhere I've read about someone putting a mic INSIDE the harp's sound hole...

[sedohr]

Originally Posted by pkautzsch

I'd probably go for one or two mics to the body where most of the sound comes from, and maybe another one for some finger picking noise. Not too close, but not too far away. 2 ft might be a point to start.
Somewhere I've read about someone putting a mic INSIDE the harp's sound hole...

Yeah, I read about the inside the soundhole trick too, very interesting that. But I'd like to get a nice stereo image. And maybe I better throw in my Pearlman near the body to get the fuller sound..

...too bad I'd have to use my Avalon for that as my Pacifica is doing the stereo pair. need more quality pres..

[bongo]

I would put the mics about a foot away from the players hands on the opposite side of the harp.
Treat it like a piano. (which it is)

[Brent Hahn]

Originally Posted by pkautzsch

Somewhere I've read about someone putting a mic INSIDE the harp's sound hole...

Right -- take something KM84ish in size, wrap it in foam (except the capsule, natch) and stick it into the top of the upper sound slot (if there's more than one). The biggest trick is getting the mic to stay put -- it will want to wiggle up and down, and the cable will be right between the player's feet. Try to get some surgical tape to hold it in place with -- harpists tend to freak when you attack their instrument with duct tape. The sound won't be perfect, but in an ensemble it'll probably be fine, and the isolation is usually great. On a session with trumpets in the room, it's pretty much your only option.

[sedohr]

Originally Posted by bongo

I would put the mics about a foot away from the players hands on the opposite side of the harp.
Treat it like a piano. (which it is)

One mic towards the bass, the other towards the treble then..like a piano..brilliant.

[Jim vanBergen]

Having done a LOT of harp recording & mixing (solo & w/ orchestra), I'm still a fan of miking further away. Mics inside the harp lose the attack of the strings, and plucking attack as well as the famous harp gliss is nothing without string attack- can you imagine putting your mics INSIDE the acoustic guitar soundhole?

Yes, sometimes you can get great tone. A LOT depends on the harp, the player, and you may have issues if there is a lot of pedal noise so be prepared for a backup. A regular session harpist in NY always has too much contact noise with the harp body. I'd always try the option of two mics spaced 1.5-2 meters apart, and as far as 2m from the instrument itself. A lot of it will depend on where the range of the harp music is, and how its supposed to fit in the orchestration.

Please let us know how it works out for you!

[sedohr]

Originally Posted by Jim vanBergen

Having done a LOT of harp recording & mixing (solo & w/ orchestra), I'm still a fan of miking further away. Mics inside the harp lose the attack of the strings, and plucking attack as well as the famous harp gliss is nothing without string attack- can you imagine putting your mics INSIDE the acoustic guitar soundhole?

Yes, sometimes you can get great tone. A LOT depends on the harp, the player, and you may have issues if there is a lot of pedal noise so be prepared for a backup. A regular session harpist in NY always has too much contact noise with the harp body. I'd always try the option of two mics spaced 1.5-2 meters apart, and as far as 2m from the instrument itself. A lot of it will depend on where the range of the harp music is, and how its supposed to fit in the orchestration.

Please let us know how it works out for you!

Well. The harpist's gone and everything went well. I wish I had read your post before the session because that would have encouraged me to go further away with the mics. I tried them in xy about 0.3 - 0.4 meter from the harp, pointing down to the soundboard. It was a little muddy so I backed off a little but not much. Maybe 0.5M was the distance in the end. It was not the perfect sound that I had in my head but a pretty good one still. I thing that I might have gained more with a greater distance, I will definetly try it the next time.

ps
I was so occupied with not getting the classical harp sound because to me it often lacks energy, that´s´why I tried the close micking tecnique.

Thanks,
Kalli

[Jim vanBergen]

Sorry I didn't get to you before the session but glad I added some food for thought. I have found some harpists don't play with much energy, but the ones who really are good have an extraordinary dynamic range, and with a little comp/limiting you can get smashing (no pun intended) results, though most of my harp recordings have no dynamics on them at all. I love the warmth of the bottom two octaves but most people freak, they are used to only hearing the top octaves and no warmth- they have no idea the range of a full-sized concert harp. And they muddiness can KILL a recording...a lot depends on the room, I had a 12x16 room that was AWFUL for a solo recording I did. I finally put the LDC Neumann 1.5m away and put the ribbon 3m, which was actually OUTSIDE the door to the room...but gave it the right combination of natural, slightly distant tone (not unlke hapsichord) and placement for the mix. Whatever works, right?

[sedohr]

Originally Posted by Jim vanBergen

Sorry I didn't get to you before the session but glad I added some food for thought. I have found some harpists don't play with much energy, but the ones who really are good have an extraordinary dynamic range, and with a little comp/limiting you can get smashing (no pun intended) results, though most of my harp recordings have no dynamics on them at all. I love the warmth of the bottom two octaves but most people freak, they are used to only hearing the top octaves and no warmth- they have no idea the range of a full-sized concert harp. And they muddiness can KILL a recording...a lot depends on the room, I had a 12x16 room that was AWFUL for a solo recording I did. I finally put the LDC Neumann 1.5m away and put the ribbon 3m, which was actually OUTSIDE the door to the room...but gave it the right combination of natural, slightly distant tone (not unlke hapsichord) and placement for the mix. Whatever works, right?

Exactly!. I've worked quite a bit with a harpist that have played with a symphony orchestra over a 30 years. She's pretty harsh like she's always trying to cut through an orchestra, even when she is playing solo. But the one I was recording this time, she listened to the first take and realized that she had to play much softer ´cause the mics were picking every detail up.. After that it sounded really nice. What I would have liked better regarding the sound was even more detailed sound, maybe m300 through Pacifica are not the best combination..although it's very usable. But what I was not looking for was the distant sound like from the back of the orchestra.

Thank you so much for your lesson Jim

Kalli

[ten21studio]

Hi Guys

Just like to say that I found this thread really useful as I also had my first harp session in last week.

Ended up using 2 x C414's and and M149. All about 2 feet apart.

I know there are potential phase problems but I just worked on the basis that if it sounds fine...... that's fine!

For any one who's intersted I filmed a crude video of one of the passes and have uploaded it to my site.

In case it's of interest go to

http://www.ten21.biz/video.html

and click on the image of the harp.

Cheers

Sean Kenny

Ten21 Recording Studio (UK)